Electric vehicles (split from Quentin Willson's hot tips)

[AH1951]

I was surprised to see that Quentin Willson has become an ambassador for EVs.

https://www.quentinwillson.co.uk/electric-cars

I wonder who is paying him to tread this path?

Because to me, EVs make neither environmental nor financial sense.

If they were any good, they would succeed on their own merits, not require subsidies, or government propaganda and coercion to pressure drivers into buying them.

[mojo]

If they were any good, they would succeed on their own merits, not require subsidies, or government propaganda and coercion to pressure drivers into buying them.

I recently bought an EV (secondhand - a model that is no longer in production). I bought it on its merits, I got no government subsidy and I'm not aware of any government propaganda relating to the purchase of secondhand EVs.

I enjoy driving it a great deal and, although setting up cheap overnight charging involved a fair bit of faffing about, the resulting cost savings made it worthwhile, IMO.

[Grant]

Setting up cheap overnight charging involved a fair bit of faffing about, the resulting cost savings made it worthwhile, IMO.

Oh I remember you telling me that story about you tapping into the neighbors Lecky supply MartMan

[Richie]

I welcome any coverage that raises the profile of the marque, but Quentin Wilson is only ever interested in £££. He's a glorified second hand car dealer.
As a classic car fan, I would be more encouraged to buy a particular car if i read about the enjoyment that could be had adding to the odometer than the money that might be made from buying a low mileage car and keeping it that way.

And, from a modern perspective, I too would choose EV purely on the basis of driving merits. Currently (no pun intended) on holiday in Cornwall and enjoying racking up the miles in one.

[felixkk]

I welcome any coverage that raises the profile of the marque, but Quentin Wilson is only ever interested in £££. He's a glorified second hand car dealer.
As a classic car fan, I would be more encouraged to buy a particular car if i read about the enjoyment that could be had adding to the odometer than the money that might be made from buying a low mileage car and keeping it that way.

Very good point Richie. I just read an article in the local newspaper that from an investment point, investing in any classic car less than 100'000 doesn't make any financial sense. Probably true. On the contrary side: one view I heard- from a person who's not really all that interested in money, is that value = respect. And that Jensen deserve a lot more respect for the cars that they built...

[David Davies]

Auction and other dealer and private sale prices are a very relevant issue as if you’re like me not currently owning a CV8, but always on the look out for one, how much one has to pay is very relevant as one has to shell out quite a lot of cash.

As are auction prices compared to dealer asking prices (eg 47.5k v 69.5k for the same blue CV8 Quentin refers to). As is what one should be paying for one that needs work and the estimated cost of that remedial work. Some such cars can be overpriced for what they are given the high costs of restoration. Equally it is useful to speculate what one would have to pay for a CV8 like Anton’s as the absolute top should such a car ever come for sale. I have a view because it’s useful to compare that figure for example with other excellent cars such as the two mentioned by Quentin.

I have never regarded any Jensen as an investment - they are not - but I have had enormous fun driving all of them and seeing the restorations take shape.

[Richie]

Rarely do any hobbies make financial sense. Be it, for example, playing - or indeed watching - football, rugby or golf, horse riding, fishing etc etc. Or cars, be they new ones that depreciate, or old ones that require maintenance.
They all typically cost money.
I guess the point is, as David has made very well, is to make sure that they're not costing more money than necessary to enjoy your chosen passion, whatever that may be. And, as Felix said, if you're selling to ensure that the purchaser has enough respect for the product.

[AH1951]

If they were any good, they would succeed on their own merits, not require subsidies, or government propaganda and coercion to pressure drivers into buying them.

I recently bought an EV (secondhand - a model that is no longer in production). I bought it on its merits, I got no government subsidy and I'm not aware of any government propaganda relating to the purchase of secondhand EVs.

I enjoy driving it a great deal and, although setting up cheap overnight charging involved a fair bit of faffing about, the resulting cost savings made it worthwhile, IMO.

Mojo,
Presumably, you bought it at that sweet spot where the previous owner(s) had suffered massive depreciation but at which there are a few years of life still left in the battery.
Replacement batteries are very expensive.
($60,000 for a Porsche.)
So expensive that the car will be junked after about ten years because nobody will spend more than the car is worth to replace the battery.
Compare a life of ten years for an EV to twenty to thirty years for an ICE vehicle.
So much for EVs being environmentally friendly!
(Would be ironic if some were converted to ICE as happened with Fisker.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxu0YeU1rpw

The MacMaster has an entertaining YouTube channel in which he reveals the downside of electric cars.

50 minutes, way too long and slow. (Play at 1.75 x Normal Speed.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYBXPd6pF4


MGUY Australia is also very good. 6 minutes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fmdBrwHtr ... cmFsaWE%3D

BTW,
I wonder what happened to that beautiful Interceptor III in California Sage, which had its guts ripped out in preparation for an electric conversion?
That was 11 months ago and I've seen no report on its progress.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=38wrIDWsvIE

I hope the owner came to his senses and reinstalled the oily bits.

[mojo]

Mojo,
Presumably, you bought it at that sweet spot where the previous owner(s) had suffered massive depreciation but at which there are a few years of life still left in the battery.
Replacement batteries are very expensive.
($60,000 for a Porsche.)
So expensive that the car will be junked after about ten years because nobody will spend more than the car is worth to replace the battery.
Compare a life of ten years for an EV to twenty to thirty years for an ICE vehicle.

Yes - bought at 20 months old. The original buyer lost quite a bit in depreciation (£40k -> £24k). I don't expect to escape a lot more depreciation myself, but I don't really mind. A car like that is just a thing to be used, not an investment. I plan to keep it for 10 years, and the batteries may well be past their best by then.

Who knows what the economics of battery replacement will be like in a decade's time? At the moment there are few independent companies that work on battery replacement/upgrade, and the original manufacturers are simply not interested in selling batteries to existing owners. That will probably change, but I can't predict how.

I find it odd that people choose to focus on the fact that batteries are expensive to replace, while conveniently forgetting that in the non-EV world it's not at all uncommon for a petrol or diesel engined car to be scrapped in mid-life because either the engine or the gearbox has failed, and a replacement from the manufacturer is too expensive for it to be worth doing anything other than junk the car? Of course, there's a whole industry dedicated to "rebuilding" engines with a jet washer, but that's not a risk-free option.

I should add that I'm not expecting to go EV-only any time soon. My other vehicle is a 10 year old diesel van - it's a useful complement because it will go for 600 miles on a tank of diesel and can carry almost anything I need to (which the EV won't). But I admit I don't expect to use the van often, because the EV is such a pleasure to drive, and running costs are so low (roughly 2.5p/mile to charge, because I only ever charge it at home).

[AH1951]

I can see how well your purchase works for you.
EVs work well for some people.

Wouldn't work for me, driving from Munich to the mountains, and Munich to Scotland.

But governments are imposing sales quotas which is a ridiculous thing to do.
Ford and GM are losing billions.
Buyers are rejecting EVs.

All electric cars will need a replacement battery at some point.
Probably only after ten years of use?

By contrast, an ICE car will usually go 200,000 miles or more before the engine needs work.
Not necessarily a full rebuild.
Probably at a cost of only a few thousand pounds.
Not £20,000+
That's why people focus on the replacement cost of an EV's battery.

I would guess that almost all surviving useable Jensens have had an engine rebuild at some time.

You seem to have low confidence in engine rebuilders.

[johnw]

I can't really see how EV's make sense for one or two people. I have a VW Lupo that regularly gives between 80 and 90MPG on short and long trips, is extremely quiet inside at 90mph, has 170k miles on the clock, cost £500 outright (Tesla charge half that annually just to connect to their network!) typically they run to 350k miles before engine rebuild required, gearboxes need rebuilding after 120k, various weaknesses (shift forks crack & need welding, a reduced amount of synthetic oil was specified to reduce windage creating a longevity trade off), tyre usage is minimal, tyres are £30 each. The car can run on a mix of diesel and used chip fat. The car has actually more than doubled in value with increasing fuel prices over the past 5 years since I have had it. It is 22 years old. If you look at the massive amount of metal and battery required to get a decent
EV range, say 300 miles assuming -15 winter weather, it is crazy. I get 700 miles a tank, fill up for £50 in Germany in under 5 mins. It is a very lightweight car, magnesium wheels and suspension components, aluminium body panels, etc, so parts require little material to replace, be it tyres, brakes, bearings which are small. If I was allowed to run it on heating oil without diesel tax, even with tax, it stomps on EVs money wise. It is quite fun to drive believe it or not.

[mojo]

It makes sense to me, because I wanted one! That's good enough for me - feel free to choose what suits you.

The EV that I chose is not made of a massive amount of metal and battery - 4 seat and four doors but weighs around 1400 kilos, which I think is about the same weight as the 4-seat, four-door Yaris that it replaced (but it's a ~lot~ more fun to drive).

The Yaris has moved on to a new owner (a family friend) who I hope will take care of it like I did - it's 19 years old now so it's probably going to need it.

[AH1951]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kMC1rabh8hw

Just for fun!



BTW

I stand firm on my comments about batteries.

Interestingly, a Ford Cortina Mk I weighs 787 kg.

VW Lupo 1.0 weighs 856 kg.

[felixkk]

I too wonder about what happened to the Interceptor conversion? The range of their past conversions is a bit sobering- 50 to max 200 miles, so probably quite a bit less in real life conditions.

www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/past-projects

Our Subaru Outback does much better than the Lupo: 100 mpg (per person- there are usually 5 of us in the car)

[mojo]

The range of their past conversions is a bit sobering- 50 to max 200 miles, so probably quite a bit less in real life conditions.

But that's predictable enough, isn't it? None of the cars that they have in their conversion list was designed to have big batteries fitted, so there isn't the space to fit it in the right place (I'm guessing in the Range Rover they have to limit more due to weight distribution than total weight). It's one of the fundamental problems with retro-fitting batteries to cars that were not designed for the purpose.