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V-8 Engine Tech

Inetrceptor III 440 rebuild at Dave Gilliver's

Mopar Big Block Talk

by slotcarone » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:52 pm

It is always common practice to not let a new or freshly rebuilt engine idle on startup. Always better to run it at least 1500 rpm for at least an hour. :)
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by Chris_R » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:54 pm

Unfortunately that list of oils only applies those in the USA. It is quite possible Grant that the engine failure you write about did not use one of the top graded oils for film strength during startup. You have to remember that oils in the 1960s had none of the qualities of todays top motor oils and quite a good few products on sale today are not much better than those old oils. Those that claim that an old style oil (e.g. Comma Classic or Halfords Classic mineral oils to name but two) are better are in fact doing us all a disservice.
Don't just take my word for it, perhaps take the word of Bob Olree of General Motors who wrote this article on Engine Oil Myths https://www.centerlearning.com/tmswebtr ... tml#story1 and who was responsible for designing the test IIIG mentioned in the article specifically to test wear on flat tappet engines and which the oils have to pass to get the certification, which incidentally the so called classic oils made to old standards do not have to pass. I know what I'd rather have in my engine.
Last edited by Chris_R on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by johnw » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:25 pm

Thanks for that very interesting piece of history.

I would love to know if I can simply fit hydraulic roller lifters to an existing used [original] cam (383). Presumably the motor would last longer? [You can see/measure on used lifters that they start to loose their crown after 50K miles or so. Some of that metal is in the oil. I am not going to want to change lifters as a precaution against breaking through the hardened surface if I have to put the bearings through that hell. Also, given potential pump up of hydraulic tappets, I am thinking that given the low mileage I do now, adjustable roller rockers, and solid roller lifters are not much of an inconvenience, hopefully they would reduce the amount of garbage going round the engine. Rob, have you thought about those too?]

The link to the oil guy is very useful thanks. Also I didn't know additives were specified to be added at break in way back then. [Some bits of metal will get in the bearings whatever you do if you recirculate the oil, no filter is perfect and all will let through some prescribed size of debris depending on their grade, unless you break in without pistons, just fit the crank, rotate the oil pump with a motor, and do a controlled break in of the cam with some electric motor coupled to the gear. I wonder if that is what Chrysler did at the factory to break in cams? They could also use a special lubricant supply, with extra filters, or simply circulate the oil one time only. Say 10 minutes of that?] FYI Reading the back of that 60s can of additives:

MoparOilSuppliment.jpg
MoparOilSuppliment.jpg (99.73 KiB) Viewed 236 times


[Given the way cams are broken in, I would not want to be changing cams for different race circuits back in the day. I know the main bearings are not under load like when being driven, but as an amater racer/enthusiast might be breaking in a few different cams, this must cam surely shorten engine life.] [edited bits in brackets]
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Previous FFs: 119/006, 119/73, 119/123, 119/132, 127/255, 127/289. Current: 119/036 (remains stolen unrecovered).
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by Chris_R » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:11 pm

johnw wrote:Some of that metal is in the oil......
......no filter is perfect
A FRAM oil filter is 99% efficient at 20 microns. That means that 99% of particles of 20 microns or larger are filtered out. That is what is certified, in reality it probably does better than that and successfully filters all particles of that size as well filtering smaller particles. To put that into context, as I wrote earlier a 440 crankshaft clearance should be between 0.0005" and 0.0015", 20 microns is 0.000787".
Any contaminents, which includes any metallic particles, are kept in suspension by the oil until they can be carried to the filter where they get removed.
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by Steve Payne » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:41 pm

johnw wrote:
I would love to know if I can simply fit hydraulic roller lifters to an existing used [original] cam (383). Presumably the motor would last longer? [You can see/measure on used lifters that they start to loose their crown after 50K miles or so. Some of that metal is in the oil. I am not going to want to change lifters as a precaution against breaking through the hardened surface if I have to put the bearings through that hell. Also, given potential pump up of hydraulic tappets, I am thinking that given the low mileage I do now, adjustable roller rockers, and solid roller lifters are not much of an inconvenience, hopefully they would reduce the amount of garbage going round the engine. Rob, have you thought about those too?]


It depends on who you listen too or what forum you look at , I fitted Hydraulic roller lifters and adjustable roller rockers on my standard cam over 50,000 miles ago. I was told it would not work for various reasons including cam creep as roller cams have flat profiles where as a normal cam have a slope to rotate the follower. The last time I looked at the cam there was no noticeable ware.

Fitting the followers was straight forward but the rockers took a while to get them correctly set up and you will need new push rods of the correct length.

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by Grant » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:02 pm

Steve Payne wrote: Fitting the followers was straight forward but the rockers took a while to get them correctly set up and you will need new push rods of the correct length.Steve

Something that is puzzling me Stevey... If you have hydraulic roller lifters, then why do you need adjustable roller rockers?.. what puzzles me is that as standard the hydraulic lifters are supposed to (I thought) open the valves to correct opening, but that I thought was always weird as you had no adjustment if say the hydraulic followers had a slight leak then the valve would open enough would it and you would never know,.. so I agree that having adjustment is a brilliant idea,.. but I wonder why or how Mopar got the hydraulic followers to work and open the valve enough or too much :?
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by Steve Payne » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:21 pm

I remember I had an Opel Manta in the 80's and that had Hydraulic lifters ( cam in head engine) but the followers were adjustable. The technique to get them correctly adjusted was to wind them in while it was running until the engine slowed down and them wind them back out until it slowed again and half way between the two points was the correct setting, it was a messy job but the engine performed so much better and was a lot smoother.

What I am getting at is in truth when these engine were new they were close enough to the correct setting but after nearly 50 years and a couple of head skims my guess is they are probably way off but due to the primitive design and the fact the engine does not rev that high we get away with it.

The way the manufacturer of the kit I bought was to preload the followers and then turn them another 1/2 a turn but some needed a bit more to get them quite. I did think about trying the method I used on my Opel but it seems to run well as it is.

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by johnw » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:58 am

Steve, what make of Roller followers did you use, do you remember?

Grant, MOPAR did have issues with the first hydraulic lifters which would "pump up" at high RPM and limit maximum power. I guess they acted a bit like a rev limiter. They were not a new thing even back then, Rolls Royce were using them Pre WWII on the Phantom III. RR swapped back to/offered solid lifters conversions later on. The later PIIIs were also a bit faster. It could have been a performance move.

I have not seen roller rockers without an adjustment. Maybe they come as kits? I was thinking to keep it simple, go for solid lifters and remove one potential weakness, and limit reciprocating weight (Hydraulics are heavier). The only concern is that some roller lifters are race parts, and their oiling is not designed for idling in traffic with low oil pressure which causes premature wear.
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by Steve Payne » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:02 pm

I think they were comp cams or crane. If memory serves me correctly they were about £500 what ever that is in Dollars?

I have seen some on Ebay for under £100 but being such a critical component I would be careful of buying cheap.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydraulic-Ro ... rk:14:pf:0

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by RockyUSA » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:22 am

What could possibly go wrong with a set like that?

:wink:

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by Steve Payne » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:47 am

RockyUSA wrote:What could possibly go wrong with a set like that?

:wink:

Rocky


If I had the money to waste I would like to actually like to see how they performed, my guess is they would wipe out a cam or they would disintegrate after a short time.

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by Chris_R » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:12 am

What's the bar connecting the lifters in pairs for? I always thought lifters operated independently.
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by Grant » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:23 am

Chris_R wrote:What's the bar connecting the lifters in pairs for? I always thought lifters operated independently.

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by Steve Payne » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:25 am

Chris_R wrote:What's the bar connecting the lifters in pairs for? I always thought lifters operated independently.


It stops them rotating so the roller stays on the cam.

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by johnw » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:30 am

That seller claims to be a manufacturer that makes lots of stuff, turbos, connecting rods, hydraulic tappets for several makes. My concern with those, in fact any roller follower, is the quality of the needle rollers used. If they were the bronze bushed type (more machining but cheaper material cost), like the more expensive comp cams versions, they might be worth a shot, but you would need to inspect each one. There are solid lifter versions for even less.
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