oil pump removal

ecvdbeek · Post by **ecvdbeek** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:10 pm

Hello to all,

The oil pressure of 112/2317 is playing tricks. Since a couple of weeks at startup everything looks ok. Pressure around 50 psi. Slight drop at idle, but when the engine is warm the pressure drops at idle to nearly zero. Never had this before. I have lowered the oilpan to check the oilpump and perhaps replace it, but to my surprise it looks impossible to get the pump out or even to remove the suction pipe and filter without lifting the complete engine!! The chassis in in the way.
While at it I checked the bearings for possible damage and cause of oil pressure trouble, but they look ok.

Does anybody have a trick to get the pump out without all the work to lift the engine?

Thanks
Ed

CrAzYMoPaRGuY · Post by **CrAzYMoPaRGuY** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:00 pm

What am I missing?
The oil pump is EXTERNAL. It isn't in the engine's sump, it's on the left front side of the engine down low. Four 9/16ths head bolts hold it on, it has a paper gasket that should come with a new pump.
There are "standard" pumps and slightly taller "high volume" pumps.

This is a Hemi engine but look down and to the left, it's the same as any B/RB engine as far as oil pump location... the filter screws on to the front in this application, yours should be a remote filter and you will have to re-use the top plate from your original pump setup....

Julian_S · Post by **Julian_S** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:22 pm

>While at it I checked the bearings for possible damage and cause of oil pressure trouble, but they look ok.

Can you elaborate on this, have you dropped the big-end caps, lifted the rods off the crank and looked at the shells?

>Does anybody have a trick to get the pump out without all the work to lift the engine?

One easy task is to whip the pressure relief valve plug off and check that the relief valve is not sticking in the bore.

Julian.

ecvdbeek · Post by **ecvdbeek** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:44 pm

Hi Julian.

Yes that's what I have done to check the bearings and they looked ok so they cannot be the reason for the pressure drop.
I will try the pressure relieve valve tomorrow but from what I remember a failing valve would show as a stuck figure on the gauge either high or low and not a drop. Thanks for the help Julian. I appreciate it very much.

kind regards
Ed

Post by **Steve Payne** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Could it be the cam bearings?

Considering the oil guage reading is taken from the rear cam bearing any ware could show in a low reading but probably not show up with any more symptoms.

How about taking a tee off one of the fexibles to the oil filter and see what the pressure is there?

Steve

Julian_S · Post by **Julian_S** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:00 pm

I'm sorry if this sounds like a real basic suggestion but have you got the correct grade oil in there - not some light viscosity stuff designed for modern engines?

What about the filter - have you changed this?

Remember that the standard electric pressure gauge is not necessarily to be trusted, you'd not be wasting your time plumbing in a direct reading Bourdon gauge just to check.

Low oil pressure when hot is normally a sign of excessive clearances ie wear, provided you've eliminated all the obvious causes.

Julian.

Post by **Steve Payne** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:17 pm

Well said Julian, I had a phone call fairly recently from an owner who had put Mobil 1 in his car and was wondering why his oil pressure had nearly gone.

I had to tell him that the very expensive oil was useless in an Interceptor and he needed to get some 20w50.

Steve

1chw · Post by **1chw** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:46 pm

Julian_S wrote:Remember that the standard electric pressure gauge is not necessarily to be trusted, you'd not be wasting your time plumbing in a direct reading Bourdon gauge just to check.

Following my recent rebuild I has similar symptom: 50psi-ish on start up followed by low pressure indication once the engine warms up, often down to near enough zero. However, my oil warning light never showed a flicker and the engine was running beautifully. Once a mechanical pressure gauge was connected it became clear the the actual pressure was fine. A replacement pressure sender seems to have solved the problem. I've been driving my car at least weekly through February and March with all the dials where they should be!

I'm not sure if this was down to an electrical weakness in the sender or just some loose crud in it.

Wallace · Post by **Wallace** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:06 pm

112/2317 should be a RHD CV8 MkIII and the oil pressure gauge if standard should be of the Bourdon tube type and not electric, it would be worthwhile verifying the gauge operation and accuracy by either substitution or pressure testing so you know the gauge reading is correct. My first check would be as Julian has suggested and to check the pressure relief valve if you have pressure loss when hot. Has anything been changed or other work been done to the engine prior to this happening?

Mike

CrAzYMoPaRGuY · Post by **CrAzYMoPaRGuY** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:09 am

ecvdbeek wrote:Hi Julian.

Yes that's what I have done to check the bearings and they looked ok so they cannot be the reason for the pressure drop.

If main bearings were the cause you wouldn't necessarily "see" the wear on the bearings associated with an oil pressure drop like you had.

Do the lifters bleed down at tickover? Do the lifters "clack" at tickover when the gauge reads near zero?

I have a feeling it's oil pump and/or viscosity, but the above responses are all pretty bang on from what I have read.

ecvdbeek · Post by **ecvdbeek** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:10 pm

Hi All,

Good to get so many of you to trying to help out.
I have changed nothing significant but a regular replacement of the oil filter some 2000 kms ago and I am indeed always using 20W50.
Testing the valve this morning showed nothing unusual so I think I will follow up on the suggestions by a number of you and check the pressure at the filter and to connect a different sender and gauge although my first impression was that a sender and/or gauge failure would give a different reading than a drop at idle. But it seems a last resort before going for drastic and time consuming measures like the oil pump exchange and indeed the oilpressure indicator lamp doesn't light. Engine running nicely indeed and no other indicatio than the bl... gauge readings.
Will keep you informed and thanks again!!

kind regards

Ed

Post by **Steve Payne** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:31 pm

Ed

An oil pump exchange is only a couple of hours work, if you do go this route I suggest you go for a high flow model. These are a little deeper but can help a little if you have an oil pressure problem.

Dont forget you will need longer bolts if you go for a high flow pump.

Steve

Post by **Richie** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:55 pm

i had a replacement sender fitted on mine recently - that 'found' a few psi - i also recently gave the car an 'Italian de-coke' (ie a damned good thrashing, almost redlining it a few times whilst safe to do so) and that too has caused my needle to nudge to the right - not sure if i've cleared some stuff out and improved matters, or shifted stuff and blocked an oil way...without wishing to tempt fate, all seems well tho...

1chw · Post by **1chw** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:16 pm

To answer one part of your original post that hasn't been so far - you don't have to pull the engine out to change the oil pump. From reading other posts when I had to tackle the same job some 18 months to 2 years ago, the preferred method seems to be to release the engine mount on that side and lift the engine a bit to give yourself a little more manoeuvering room (don't forget to secure both car and engine with suitable stands). I did manage it once without moving the engine at all by dismantling the pump in place but it is even more messy

Which ever way you go it is not too difficult but you can expect a sleeve full of oil at some point

ThierryB · Post by **ThierryB** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:45 pm

Oil pump sotry :
1-It is possible to remove the pump like this :
a-remove all the screws you can
b-remove the left side engine support mounting bold+screw
c-lift the engine a little
d-remove the last screw

Note : order a standard oil poum for 383 or 440, or a high pressure one (not a high flow one !). and reuse the top cover of your pump to refit on the new one body. It worked perfectly and you can keep the filter base above the wheel arch. (You can not fit the standard pump with the filter on it, as there is no place with the body structure.

Other point : when the engine is hot, it you read NO oil pressure (but the oil pressure warninig light stays off) ...replace the oil pressure gauge transmitter ! I had this problem, and I made a test with a mechanical one : oil pressure was ok !
Big question : where is it possible to find the transmitted referenced : PTI 811 / 10 12 VOLTS 100 PSI... ???
Best RegardS.
Th.B.
France.

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