Non starting MK1 383

[lukey]

Hi everyone I wonder if anyone can help me. I’ll give you the short story, basically my granddad gave me his car years ago. he bought the car to restore in the late 80s as a complete rust bucket in bits and he managed to get the car Almost ready for paint and final assembly, but he had a massive accident in the docks in 91 and the car has just sat in bits ever since and being to rust again luckily only surface rust though... his garage has been full of junk for years and nobody has been able to get to the car, but a few weeks ago we managed to clear it out, and I’ve started trying to finish the car for the both of us.. he had the engine rebuilt in 1990 because it was in bits when he bought the car, it was rebuilt and put back into the car and 90% refitted but it has never Fired and run... so over the last few weeks I’ve been checking things and replacing parts that didn’t look in the best condition . Someone had cut the wiring loom to bits before he had bought the car so where having to Hotwire the car to try and start it..I tried to start the engine exactly how it was but with no joy so bit by bit I’ve been changing one thing at a time to see what the issue is. So it’s had a new

dizzy cap,
rotor arm,
set of point,
ballast resistor,
starter solenoid,
plugs,
starter relay
battery....

the coil and condenser seam ok as well as the plug leads. I’ve also striped and cleaned the carburettor because it’s was frozen shut... the fuel tank was new in the late 80s but never connected. ive got spark and fuel at the plugs as well as good compression... I’ve checked the firing order and the points gap and everything is Exactly as it should be as far as I can see. But I can’t get the engine to fire, I’m getting Coughs and splutters every now and then, and when the timing was 180 out I had a few massive backfires and flames out of the carb but nothing else... it’s got fresh fuel and quick start going into the carb but it just won’t fire ... I can’t think of anything else to check.. any ideas??..

Any ideas / thoughts and help would be massively appreciated

Thanks
Luke

[Grant]

Hi Luke... Just pour some neat fuel down the carb throat opening, the mouth at the front of the carb closest to the rad,say a quarter or half of a tea/coffee cup and see what happens .. It may fire and run for 10 seconds or something like that, if it does at least you know its a fuel issue, could be fuel pump, could be carb issue, but you will know that all else is in order, but do that and report back.. good luck and enjoy, it's the best time .. I love those moments when you fire-up an old car after years of standing
Where abouts are you based anyway LukeyBoy?
Grant

[lukey]

Thanks Grant, that’s basically what I’m doing now. . Though even with half a cup full, the plugs are barely moist.. it quite baffling.. The fuel tank isn’t connected, fuel line stop half down the car before it reaches the tank... we’re getting occasional coughs and splutters, and signs that the engine really wants to run. We just can’t seam to get to it to cough for long enough to fire and run for a few seconds... as soon as we know the engine will actually run under it own power , I can carry on rebuilding the rest of the car, and connect everything as it should be .

I’m in newport South Wales.

Thanks Luke

[slotcarone]

Question is what does it sound like when cranking over? Do you know what these engines should sound like? From what you are saying it sounds like the timing chain was not installed correctly. Just a thought.

[lukey]

The engine does sound a bit sluggish when it’s cranking, like your trying to turn the car over with a flat battery.. it dose seam like we can’t get the engine to turn over fast enough to get it to take off. there’s more life and it sounds a lot better better when we rotate the distributer 180* but then obviously it backfires pretty violently.... unfortunately I don’t know how the engine should sound, I do know they have lazy starters and it sounds similar to that.. I think I’m going to have to check the time belt as your the 2nd person to mention that to me now.. unfortunately I wasnt even born when the engine was rebuilt and to be honest I’m totally convinced the guy who rebuilt it knew what he was doing.. if I could get the engine out I would strip it and completely rebuild myself, at least I’d know everything would be correct, but unfortunately that’s not an option for now.

Thanks Luke

[Chris_R]

I think you have to start with the very basics and make sure the timing chain is correctly positioned and then work from there. At the moment you are dealing with unknowns and chasing from one thing to another, this needs to be worked on methodically and correctly.

[Steve Payne]

Is the distributor 180 degrees out? Easy to do on one of these engines and easy to remedy. Just lift the distributor and rotate the rotor arm 180 degrees.

Also well worth checking the rotor arm is actually pointing at number 1 cylinder when it is supposed too.

Once you are 100 sure it is correct get one person to turn the engine over and get another to slowly rotate the distributor.

Steve

[lukey]

Thanks everyone.. we’ve stripped everything down and started from fresh about 3 times now over the last week or 2, idiot checking every time. Everything seams to be exactly where and how it should be... with piston 1 at TDC the rotor arm is pointing at the rear edge of the alternator, just past the clip on the distributor body.. the arm is rotating anti-clockwise. The firing order is correct 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. And we have a decent spark at the plugs.. the points, rotor arm, dizzy Cap and ballast resistor brand new...

We’re putting a decent amount of fresh fuel and easy start down the carb, but the plugs never seam to be soaking. Even with a tea cup and a half full of fuel... you can hear the engine sucking fuel in as the engine turns so we know it’s definitely going somewhere.

Without the plugs in the engine absolutely flys around, but with the plugs in it sounds like it’s really struggling, as if your trying to start the engine on a really cold day with a flat battery.. we have 2 brand new 12v 100ah battery’s in rotation so it’s not a battery issue.. It really sounds like the engine wants to fire and run, but seams like it’s not turning fast enough to kick start it off.
I’m going to order a new set of plug leads tomorrow as I’m not convinced this set are that good. And see if that helps at all, it can’t make it any worse. Very baffling, everything seams and look good otherwise. I’ve not checked the timing chain yet, trying to avoid stripping the engine to much too soon. But going by what we’ve checked and seen so far it looks like it’s fine and installed correctly.

Any ideas ????

[RockyUSA]

This picture is for a 440, but I would guess the Mopar Cylinder numbering is the same....

Anyway - It may be stating the obvious, but this numbering scheme really threw me off after working on a Ford V8..

Another comment would be - if the engine is trying to fire on the wrong part of the stroke, it COULD make it much harder to turn over - like the behavior if your timing is too advanced.

Have you disconnected the high tension lead from the distributor (center lead from the coil) and noted if the engine still struggles to turn over with the plugs installed? I would put the end of the lead from the coil near a solid grounding point, or disconnect a wire from the coil so you aren't firing the high-voltage section with no return.

Good Luck...

Rocky

[RayR]

Silly item, are you fully choking the carb? mine has a manual choke and in warm weather starts with almost no choke, but when it cools will not start unless FULL choke, may cough a few times but will not run.

Ray

[johnw]

My guess is that you are very close but that 2 separate silly things are stopping it starting, not just one. Have you measured the compression? Is it even on all cylinders (or the ones you can easily access with the tester at least). Also what make/type plugs are you using? How old are they? Not saying change them just want to know.

If cam chain is on wrong the compression would not be sensible. Also I want to rule out stuck valves etc.

Also don't use a ballast resistor at all for now. Just wire the coil straight up. The ballast resistor is only used once it is running [when the key would be in the normal driving position].

If the guy just "put the engine back together" with the original cam chain which may have been perfect back then, that could be the issue if it is very worn and slack, missing a few teeth as the original nylon timing gears rotted with age. If there is a lot of slack in the timing chain, when you rotate the engine backwards after rotating it forwards, the rotor arm will take a while to start moving backwards due to slack. Also, if you have a timing light and connect it to a plug, the index mark will often jump a lot due to the slack/wear.

The fuel pump rubber bladder has probably rotted by now. If you blip the throttle after cranking and failing to start, you should see squirts of petrol in 2 of the carb bores as you operate the throttle with the engine completely shut down, from the accelerator pumps. Once the carb is primed the pumps will squirt for hours after. If this doesn't happen if the fuel is not getting through. However, the car should still have started up momentarily if you poured petrol in it as Grant suggested so something else doesn't add up. Must say this is a very dangerous practise pouring fuel in . If you pour some in, and there was already a pool in the manifold, you can get a bit of a fire. Blow it out with CO2? I have no idea. Just don't let the fuel pool up. A powder fire extinguisher will wreck the car if you have to use it.

I think you are very close. The 383 is a legendary motor in these cars. It is going to be totally amazing if/when you get the car finished. I think you are close to getting it started.

[RockyUSA]

The 383 is a legendary motor in these cars. It is going to be totally amazing if you get the car finished.

I think those are words of encouragement, and not disbelief!

[lukey]

Thanks rocky USA, that’s the diagram ive been using. everything is set up and looks identical to that.. no I haven’t tried disconnecting the HT, Only tried plugs in and all connected up and all plugs out..

RayR : Thanks, we’ve tired every watch way you can think of as regards to the carb and choke. Nothing seams make any kind of difference to be honest.

Thanks JohnW, no I haven’t measured the compression yet, mainly because I can’t find my gauge but also because I didn’t think the engine was turning over fast enough to give a decent reading.. the plugs are NGK BP5S, they were new when the engine was rebuilt in 1990-91, the were put in but never fired until now, so they brand new.. I’ve taken them all out and cleaned and Checked them anyway, and checked the plug gap.
Weve put a endoscope camera down into every piston and apart from being a bit sooty everything looks fine, can’t see any sign of a suck valve or anything that’s amiss, we’ve checked a few times now... there isn’t a fuel tank connected so dont need to worry about the fuel pump at the moment.

It’s very frustrating because the engine has coughed a few times and you can tell it wants to fire, it’s something stupid stopping it and just can’t workout what.

[RayR]

Hi Luke,

Am I reading this right?, there is no fuel going into the carb bowls? only what you put down the carb from the outside? If this is the case I think you will struggle to get a 'run'. Won't start when over rich, flooding, and won't start with too little fuel. Depending on the manifold, pouring fuel in will not get an even distribution of fuel to all cylinders so any running is just almost random? and without anything in the carb nothing to sustain it?

Just a thought.

[Steve Payne]

Have you tried rotating the distributor while somebody else is turning the key?

I recently had to do this on a stubborn MK3 that would not fire. Try one way then the other and for some reason it just started.

Steve