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V-8 Engine Tech

Inetrceptor III 440 rebuild at Dave Gilliver's

Mopar Big Block Talk

by Chris_R » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:45 am

Steve Payne wrote:
Chris_R wrote:What's the bar connecting the lifters in pairs for? I always thought lifters operated independently.


It stops them rotating so the roller stays on the cam.

Steve
Hmm, it looks a bit crude, not sure I like that idea, extra bits of metal rattling around and hoping they don't seize for any reason.
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by RockyUSA » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:17 pm

Here is what eventually happens when one of those rivets that attaches the link bars pops off on a high speed run (in a Ford 351C, it couldn't happen in a Jensen)….

The roller lifter rotates, and begins to wear. The lifter body eventually sinks lower, and lower into the bore.

Other hilarity ensues....

(Note that these were "good" lifters (Morels) from a respected cam vendor...

P1010023 (Large).JPG
First Look
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Worn Roller
IMG_3977 (Large).JPG (96.59 KiB) Viewed 563 times


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Worn Lifter Body
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Buckets O' Parts
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by johnw » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:16 pm

I agree with Chris on these bars, don't like them, but better than flat tappets wiping a cam? I prefer them to milling a keyway in the lifter bore and using a pin or key of some sort, which some versions suggest. Damage doesn't look too bad. The block looks ok. Hopefully the oil filter saved the crank :x Well that is one reason not to like hydraulic lifters. No warning once the hard surface of the tappets is worn through. The clatter would have been apparent very early on with solids. Nice to see that the needle rollers didn't spill out, which would be my fear. Hopefully at end of life, the roller seizes and turns into a flat tappet, then the solid lifter rattles like hell, and the filter is not overwhelmed with garbage.
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by DaveV8 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:25 pm

To Chris-R
Can I refer you to a web site you recommended
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
And refer you to (Bottom Line)
Of the social media and boundary lubrication blog.
I refer you to this site as the majority of advise your giving is not correct.
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by Chris_R » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:13 pm

Hi Dave, in what way is what I have written incorrect? I'm not sure what social media you are referring to.
Chrysler themselves recommended a 10W-30 or 10W-40 for their engines (documented in owners handbooks and workshop manuals). Nothing heavier. For the northern states in fact they recommended a 5W-20 weight oil for winter use.
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by Keith » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:58 pm

Chris_R wrote:I'm not sure what social media you are referring to.


Dave is referring to the paragraph heading of the article that he linked to:

"They are not Engineers, they don’t have Credentials, they don’t have in-depth real world experience with engines, and they have never done any testing themselves. So, they draw all kinds of incorrect conclusions and assumptions about motor oil, since they have no idea what they are doing. They read a few lame Internet articles, and they think they are experts. But, they are completely clueless that some technical information they read about motor oil, is so highly theoretical, that it isn’t even a factor in the real world. So, they don’t even know, what they don’t know."

So the "social media" referred to is internet forums (like this one), Facebook, Twitter, et al.

It's an absolute minefield and we, as simple car enthusiasts, have to tread very carefully. Indeed recently on this very forum a J-H owner with a wiring query was advised that brown wires (live!) were actually earth wires!
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by Grant » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:26 pm

I have just spent the last hour reading the whole blog about the oil... how interesting and has a great significance for me as I saw exactly what happened to a friends freshly rebuilt engine(I posted about earlier in this thread) with many particles of metal in his oil from flat tappet wipeout!, so for me it was a great link that Chris originally kindly postedImage.. many thanks ChrisImage.. it has settled quite a few twisted and confused neurons in my pea brainImage, the man that has written that blog is so into his oil, good on himImage,.. I do fear for his homelife, friends and wife though ImageImage
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by johnw » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:33 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but my take on what the extremely lengthy blog article advises "us" Mopar V8 owners to do, reading between the lines, is avoid breaking in oils just use an oil from the top of his list, normal synthetic or conventional oil when breaking in. High zinc content is irrelevant to old flat tappet engines, not good, not bad, irrelevant. Switch to a good modern grade, basically forget 20w50, synthetic like Mobil 1 or Amsol, not too thick a grade, watch hot oil pressure and choose viscosity (the 2nd number, the 30 in 5w30) based on that, 10 PSI per 1000 rpm minimum hot pressure being ideal, or closeish to that, switching to a Hi Volume Pump (and my advice by implication consider a hardened pump drive, both very easy inexpensive mods to do). We want a working oil temp of 215 to 250, He states that volume of oil through the engine is important, as it cools things, and that oils at the top of his list (predominantly almost but not all synthetics) offer the best wear protection (apart from one mineral oil with an additive, which might offer slightly less wear, but the additive has had longer term corrosion issues reported on the net). So providing you have the oil pressure, switching to a thinner synthetic benefits in cooling. A key thing in oil effectiveness is that it stays cool and works within its envelope, not too cool or too hot. Does anyone on here use 5w30 Synthetic and a high volume oil pump with 10 PSI per 1000 rpm?

With regard to the cheaper hydraulic roller lifters on ebay, this youtuber engine builder tells a tale of a cheap ebay roller lifter set losing the bar exactly like Rocky's post, and then wiping out a new cam on a Chevy, and spilling needle rollers in the engine.
https://youtu.be/D37BqV2v-eY?t=3734 I got suggested that vdieo by YT after watching this https://youtu.be/xTsphmCn8mg?t=786

Slightly related: Fire prevention using the oil pressure switch: One other thing we are moving back to, is a metal fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the carb to reduce fire risk, and renewing fuel pipe from filter to pump. Braided rubber hose for that seems like it might offer more protection than just rubber. Those with injection systems might want to drive their pump from a relay operated by the oil pressure switch, so that no oil pressure means no fuel. The fuel pump inlet is .32" just after the flare, so I guess their 1/4" fuel pipe pushes over to give a tight fit?
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by DaveV8 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:05 pm

To those who feel that they have taken a mind expanding drug after reading Chris-R recomended blog https://540rat blog.wordpress.com/ can I refer you all to Google - rat blog oil.
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by Chris_R » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:59 pm

From a google search:
http://www.bestsyntheticoilfilter.com/b ... lete-list/
These motor oil test results are from 540 Rat’s Blog. His data has been validated and backed up by four different independent industry sources. He started testing oil in June of 2013.
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