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V-8 Engine Tech

Inetrceptor III 440 rebuild at Dave Gilliver's

Mopar Big Block Talk

by Rob.Dilley » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:16 pm

I visited Dave Gilliver to see progress on our 440 rebuild, something we have wanted to do for years having brought the car from the original owner back in '85, and bitten the bullet with a bare metal respray back in the late '90s.
The low oil pressure and state of the bottom end have long been concerns, and then a connecting rod let go in a coupe de grace forcing the rebuild.
We are capitalising on the opportunity to increase the compression ratio from 8.2 to 9.5:1, fit a warmer camshaft, forged crankshaft and a dual plane inlet manifold. A new carburetor is recommended, though of course we will be keeping all the stock parts including the Thermoquad.

It is great to see the engine mostly back together and waiting for new valve gear to replace the original pressed steel rockers.
Dave's focus is solely American V8 engines and not the cars, which provides the perfect opportunity for all the things we want to do in our engine bays, and can only do whilst the engine is out.
I have some more pictures of the proposed valve train, and the mangled crankshaft, connecting rod and piston (number 7) if anyone is interested.

I was not able to upload the pictures directly to this site, so here is a link to the pictures in DropBox:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lqg67068ojp5 ... 5mHua?dl=0

Best regards

Rob
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by Rob.Dilley » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:24 pm

here is a link to some photos of the planned valve gear, seen here on a 383

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hog2cy74rp3v ... Me2ya?dl=0
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by Rob.Dilley » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:51 pm

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Pissed 'n' broke. What prompted the rebuild
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tortured crankshaft
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Pissed 'n' broke. What prompted the rebuild!
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by johnw » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:24 am

Wotcher Rob,

That's a picture, that last one, with the heat/scorch marks half way up to the small end! Ton up on the M4 as usual was it? :D

Have you gone for a roller lifters as well?

Cheers,

John.
--
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Working on: LHD 1973 Mk3 Interceptor J series, 119/122.
Previous FFs: 119/006, 119/73, 119/123, 119/132, 127/255, 127/289. Current: 119/036 (remains stolen unrecovered).
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by Rob.Dilley » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:45 am

Wotcher John,

Well spotted on the heat marks half way up the con rod. Did you notice the heat damage and pick up on the crank big end journal for 7/8?
I was actually taking it very gently on the M4 when I felt a thump, and thinking something had fallen off; I was stopped on the hard shoulder in seconds.
Ironically I was on the way back home after picking up the car from what was supposed to be an investigation of the bottom end of the engine, but which turned into a cylinder head core plug replacement and general refurbish!.

We had a coolant volcano, but after waiting for the engine to cool down, it actually started, albeit making a terrible noise.
I think the con rod failure probably started when I was doing sprints and hill climbs in the car in my yoof back in the mid to late eighties. Probably oil surge and starvation in the long sweeping corners at Goodwood.
The oil pressure has always been poor, and I have wanted to have the engine rebuilt for years.

Dave has been researching/evaluating several valve gear alternatives. There is a worrying scarcity of the right valve springs for stock rebuilds. There is a link to the more pictures of the proposed valve gear set up (seen on a 383) in the first reply I made to the original post.
Dave showed me some sinister wear patterns on pressed steel stock rockers, indicating unacceptable side loads on the valve stem. The billet aluminum set up allows fine adjustment in several directions so the roller rocker tip can be centered on the valve stem.
The engineering looks way better than the very crude stock set up, and clears the inside of standard Jensen aluminum rocker box covers.
The proof of the pudding will be seen in the dyno test at Knight Racing Services, and I can't wait to see the cumulative effect of increased CR, warmer camshaft and dual plane inlet manifold.

Best regards

Rob
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by Grant » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:28 pm

Very interesting post RobImage, although seeing the state of that crank and conrod makes me cringe, what a mess :( , I must say I do love the look of roller rockers, they look superb and obviously work so much better, but in reality are we ever going to see out stock rockers wear out before we do at this age nowImage.. still nice to have all the best bits though, I too am very interested in the results from the rolling roadImage.Do you happen to know what make of pistons Dave is using for your rebuild Rob?
Good luck with it all as these rebuilds are never cheap are the Rob! :?
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by cannonball » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 pm

And some roller rockers clack like hell,
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by Steve Payne » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:57 am

cannonball wrote:And some roller rockers clack like hell,


I have heard this of the aluminium ones.

I have steel ones in my engine and the first thing I noticed was I had to turn my tick over down I presume because there was less friction. Not a lot but about 100 rpm.

Because they roll rather than slide the valve guides last longer.

I found the adjusters were touching the plates inside the rocker covers, luckily they marked where they had touched so I just drilled some holes in the plates and now they are silent.

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by johnw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:14 am

Wotcher Rob,

I did notice the crank damage too! Did you have a windage tray fitted? I guess that would have stopped the oil starvation on the bends?
I worked on a 440 recently that had the original nylon timing gear, but also a windage tray. I don't know if they ever became standard on the Interceptor?

This wear pattern on the stock rockers, I have never heard of that before. It sounds like your rockers were worn out due to oil starvation. Perhaps they were really badly worn out Grant? Those look like 440Source roller rockers. http://store.440source.com/Rockers-Arms ... oducts/50/ There are more moving parts in those roller rockers than the entire engine! 2 needle roller bearings, each with about 20 rollers, per rocker. Hopefully they will get a nice oil feed this time. Given the old ones are worn, those look an interesting option $100 more than new pressed steel ones.

I was thinking I might have to switch to a roller cam one day if doing a cam change, as we can't get oils with the zinc in them now.
All that friction and those bits of metal off the flat cam followers in the oil.
--
John Wild
Working on: LHD 1973 Mk3 Interceptor J series, 119/122.
Previous FFs: 119/006, 119/73, 119/123, 119/132, 127/255, 127/289. Current: 119/036 (remains stolen unrecovered).
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by Chris_R » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm

johnw wrote:as we can't get oils with the zinc in them now.
All that friction and those bits of metal off the flat cam followers in the oil.
All oils contain zinc. Even the ILSAC xxW-20 and xxW-30 grades contain between 600ppm and 800ppm.
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by DaveV8 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:08 pm

Here,s reply to Chris-R comment,
There’s plenty of oil people with high Zinc content,
We use Lucas Hot Rod and Classic Oil which has high zinc content which is a (Mineral based oil),all the specs are on there website.
Quite simple realy American engine (American Oil).
Running in oil for freshly rebuilt engines + Dyno testing (Lucas Break-in oil).
Lucas Hot rod and classic SAE 20W/50 mineral based oil for on the road!
Why spend lots of money on an engine rebuild to then put poor oil and 50 pence oil filter to then destroy your engine,
Sure rob will be ok,
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by Chris_R » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:49 pm

I'm not sure that one could describe something like Mobil 1 as a poor oil. My point was that it is a myth that modern oils do not contain zinc (as suggested in the post before mine), all oils even the newest low friction ILSAC grades still contain zinc. Some of the so called classic mineral oils do not contain as much as some of the modern oils. For example, Halfords Classic 20W/50 Mineral oil only contains around 800ppm versus Mobil Super 2000 Semi-Synthetic 10W-40 which contains around 1,000ppm.
I'm quite surprised to see Lucas Hot Rod & Classic oil suggested for road use, the Lucas website states that this oil is "Not recommended for passenger car use.". It contains 2100ppm of zinc which is a level that can cause damage to the engine. Motor Industry testing has found that levels above 1400ppm increases long term wear and above 2000ppm it starts to attack the grain in the iron causing pitting.
An American engine needs American oil? Not a bad idea but when these engines were originally designed way back in the early '60s 20W/50 oil did not exist in the USA. Chrysler themselves recommended either a 10W-30 or a 10W-40 if a multigrade was used and in the northern states a 5W-30 or even a 5W-20 during the winter months.
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by johnw » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:50 am

Wotcha All,

johnw wrote:as we can't get oils with the zinc in them now.

Above, I should have said "zinc levels", I would have said "any zinc" if I really believed all new oils were 100% zinc free! By Zinc I was loosely referring to declining Zinc ie ZDDP and other once standard additives, not just zinc.

johnw wrote:All that friction and those bits of metal off the flat cam followers in the oil.

This is the important bit. If I was changing a cam now I think I would go for, or seriously consider roller cam followers and not stock flat tappets. I guess that Rob's lopsided rocker wear was caused by the low oil pressure. Perhaps lack of a windage tray started the oil starvation that led to long term low oil pressure.

Question: There are special roller cams that take advantage of the wider range of profiles only available to roller followers, but can I simply replace the followers in a 60K mile 383 I am rebuilding with hydraulic roller followers like those $400 a set Lunati ones and keep the original used stock cam?

Back to bedding in a new flat tappet cam, I assume a decent filter is vital here, but in fact quality may not matter during bedding in, and any filter that removes the really big bits may do, as the engine is not under load during bedding in, and so the metal particles going through the bearings repeatedly can be larger than would normally be tolerated without damage during running in. The objective of bedding in is to get tiny slivers of metal to be ground off the cam by controlled, metal to metal contact, where bits of the less than ideal new cam, bits that protrude through the oil film, are ground off against the flat tappet surface. This is the bedding in phase, revving the engine, to a guru specified specific level for 20 minutes or whatever. Something I would otherwise call excessive revving, all while it is not under load. The whole process sounds really brutal, and a bit insane.

If this process is not properly followed we are told, a flat tappet cam can be wiped out after a few 1000 miles, with all the metal fragments too small to be picked up by the filter, basically a large portion of hardened cam lobe, floating round the motor as Johnny thrashes it, wondering where the power is going. A Jensen I bought in 2000 had a performance cam fitted just a few 1000 miles earlier by the previous owner,and it looked brown and worn when I looked at the surface of it. Perhaps no bedding in was done. Perhaps it was but didn't work.

This bedding in process is not going to stop entirely, ever. Presumably "frequent oil changes" are a good idea. Assuming that the filter doesn't pick up the smallest pieces, whether it is brand new or old, I can now see the logic of people changing the oil without changing the filter. It is a process designed to keep the proportion of smaller unfilterable debris below a certain level. Would the answer be a fantastically good filter with magnets etc? Perhaps that might even disrupt/catch the additives if it is too fine!

So is the answer roller followers, and a fully synthetic oil after a few 1000 miles running in?

If so, how do we explain the some completely stock Chrysler motors that do 150K miles plus and still seem in good shape without roller followers or roller tappets? Is it as simple now as saying we should change the timing gear from nylon to steel and swap the flat tappets to hydraulic roller followers, fit a windage tray, and then we are done?
--
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Working on: LHD 1973 Mk3 Interceptor J series, 119/122.
Previous FFs: 119/006, 119/73, 119/123, 119/132, 127/255, 127/289. Current: 119/036 (remains stolen unrecovered).
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