Concours originality conundrum

[DaveT]

This topic is for discussion.

At more than 1 JOC concours event, I have been asked to comment on the original materials used in the seat coverings for a 541, 541r or 541s.

The correct answer is that the seat base and the front side of the seat back are leather and the back of the seat back is a type of vinyl.

So, if it is appropriate to have originality points deducted for seats that are recovered in vinyl, should it also be reasonable to deduct points for seat backs that have been retrimmed in leather?

Comments welcomed


Thanks for reading this

Dave

Dave

[colin7673]

By not doubting your knowledge on these matters David, or any judges at concours, I understand there was a "standard fit' to all these cars, but as they where hand built is it possible that a customer had changes made in production, say, for the completed seats to be all leather ?

I ask only out of interest.

[Mark1Stu]

Here are the current concours rules on originality.

Originality
The judging based on your Jensen being as near original as possible, but points will will not be lost for any recent mechanical, electrical, safety and other legalities such as seatbelts etc. Originality can be defined as “any replacement part made to Jensen specification”. If any of the judges request information on originality the Concours Secretary (or a person nominated by them) can advise, or the model registrar.
They will be the only people to give advice.

Based on your question Dave, my answer would be yes, points should also be deducted for an interior retrimmed to a non original full leather specification (even when an item may appear improved by use of better materials).

I think such a high degree of scrutiny should/will only apply to the very top end of concours - with marking differences dialled down somewhat for the lower ranks of competition - due to the greater volume of cars to scrutinise if nothing else.

I’ve thought for many many years that the JOC concours pays too much attention to cleanliness when scoring. Hence you can have a car which scores highly but actually isn’t what I would call a proper high quality example. That said, focussing more on originality will inevitably lead to difficulties in interpretation - hence the rules would need to be bolstered with boundaries on where originality becomes less important from a scoring perspective (for example, if original fur flex fitted around the door/window aperture wasn’t available, then fitting something very similar deemed in keeping with the original idea wouldn’t impact on score). JOC now has access to Richard Calver’s fantastic Original Interceptor reference guide and the expertise of all its Registrars to assist the Concours Secretary to ultimately rule on decisions.

At the end of the day, we all need to remember Concours should be fun - with a degree of subjectivity whether we like it or not.

Stu

[felixkk]

Were there known exceptions, where cars were fitted with leather backs from new, or vinyl was not used at all?

[VFK44]

Dave, regarding your original question I assumed that "over restoration" as you described would & should be penalised to an extent. I like the seatbacks being finished in the hardworking material. Of course, it was not actually vinyl but some form of leathercloth or vynide - anyone know which? A seat back covered in modern vinyl would look inferior to leather AND suffer at the concours!

[johnw]

My thoughts on this would be that a crumbly past best but well presented original vinyl piece should not loose marks to a new piece of modern material or leather. The same would go for old Cellulose paintwork, especially metallics. If the paintwork was half presentable, that would be a massive plus in my view.

I agree about practicality especially on backs of seats, and I could see that as being a marketable feature at motor shows in the day. My TVR was "half leather" interior, and the door cards were textured vinyl which cleaned up well after getting scuffed by shoes when exiting tight spaces. Once it does get damaged it is worse than leather to replace.

There is an interesting article here about recreating old fabric for car bodies. https://www.lbsbind.com/documents/cms/d ... Octane.pdf

[nrb993]

My feeling is and is always the same - The way the Jensen left the Factory - The FIRST time. so the original build, configuration as Factory.

I hope we have all the Factory details in the Genome but the exact build cards will focus on special trim.

Agreed
Neil

[felixkk]

the build cards don't exist anymore for the 541 cars, unless I am mistaken

[Peter Neale]

Dave, regarding your original question I assumed that "over restoration" as you described would & should be penalised to an extent. I like the seatbacks being finished in the hardworking material. Of course, it was not actually vinyl but some form of leathercloth or vynide - anyone know which? A seat back covered in modern vinyl would look inferior to leather AND suffer at the concours!

Stephen,

My unreliable memory has my dad referring to ‘Rambla’ as the leather effect material of the time, but an internet search has drawn a blank - can anyone else corroborate?

[John Staddon]

Service files and build cards (actually the few that I have seen for C-V8s are headed Car Particulars, though they have a "Card No.") for the 541s don't survive. Service files for the C-V8 are held by the JOC, actually me but John Lane has digital copies, C-V8 Build Cards are with Martin Robey Ltd which is a shame. Robeys have all the Interceptor filing. I don't know what survives for Jensen-Healeys. (This topic has been covered before so that info might be on the forum somewhere.)

It's not really relevant to Dave's original question, but when I had my front C-V8 seats recovered by Rejen a few years ago they had to leave the original vinyl seat backs in place as though a modern replacement material is available, the bright red colour isn't - and the backs have survived nearly 60 years with no damage except for some annoying marks that can't be cleaned off even by the professionals - so we agreed to leave them as they were rather than replace them in leather, as they are original and I think look better than a leather replacement would, which I suppose is sort of relevant to the question, original is best (and would merit more points at concours, assuming the condition is still reasonable even if not perfect). Just my view of course.

John

[John Staddon]

re Stephen's question, Ambla of course

https://www.ambla.com/ (not necessarily making the same stuff as they did 60 years ago!)

Didn't Jaguar change to Ambla for the later 240 and 340 versions of the MK11 Jag? It was said to be better than leather, but really it was just cheaper.

John

[DaveT]

There is an interesting article here about recreating old fabric for car bodies. https://www.lbsbind.com/documents/cms/d ... Octane.pdf

Hi john, this is a very interesting article. The plastics company, near Maningtree became BX Plastics and my wife, Jane's grandfather worked there in the 1960s as the night foreman / caretaker. He managed to vent the wrong tanks one night and this set fire to the local marshes for miles around!

Margaret Thatcher also worked at BX Plastics - her first job as a research chemist after leaving university in 1947.

Dave

[Fishyboy]

Hi all,
According to Keith Anderson in his book "Jensen" the 541 model never left the factory with chrome wire wheels. Does that mean originality points are deducted if a Concours car carries chrome wire wheels?
Phil

[johnw]

Hi all,
According to Keith Anderson in his book "Jensen" the 541 model never left the factory with chrome wire wheels. Does that mean originality points are deducted if a Concours car carries chrome wire wheels?
Phil

Yes I read that and would hope chrome does lose points! Were the spinners chromed anyone know?

I wouldn't worry too much about it though Phil, and I certainly wouldn't paint your beautiful chrome wheels just for a few more points, keep them for the first attempt. Would be great to see it entered! I'd love a 541 I think a lot of us would! I turned up once with Mk3 alloys on a Mk1 Vignale FF. It was the first year I owned the car and it was well worth the feedback of scrutiny from other Jensen people. The wheels had been on the car for years and the car was what it was! You could look for an original set to restore. I have built bicycle and motorcycle wheels, it is great fun, I am sure a man of your skills could manage it.

There are lots of things to think about with wire wheels, no 1 being safety, wear on splines, etc. Others like are the spokes butted, were they originally butted, are they the correct make and shape of rims? Is the general hub style correct (Jags of the 60s had curley and straight hubs depending on the year). Then there are the spinners. Wheels are a safety item, hubs wear you should get more leeway I would imagine.

[Fishyboy]

Hi johnw,
Fortunately my wheels are painted rather than chrome, which is the way the left the factory. My dropped points came from not exhibiting the spare wheel (I'm going to fabricate a wheel stand with my MIG this winter) and not cleaning the wheels thoroughly (i.e. not all all).
Phil