Concours originality conundrum

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DaveT
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by DaveT »

yes good point about the chromed wire wheels!

also RB340 instead of RB310 voltage regulators
cooling fan (4 blade cast alloy fan is correct)
fuel pumps
radial tyres! (but the safety clause in the quoted rules can be argued)
disc brakes when they should be drums (safety again)
seat belts (other than 541S 2 point diagonal belts) (safety again)
extra fuses (sore point that one, having just written off the loom in my 541S for the sake of a fuse in the sidelight circuit!)
dynators
power steering
pancake air filters
spin on oil filters
modern metallic paint

...

This thread is really heating up now. Where should we stop!
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by colin7673 »

I love it when I ask a difficult question
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by felixkk »

John Staddon wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:13 pm Robeys have all the Interceptor filing.
Not for the exported Interceptors, I don't think.
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by Frankoid »

What about listed status, like a listed building? . Grade 1 for totally original cars. Cars can only be original once, but sometimes this is just not an option. so grade 2 where restoration can be done to original specks under guidance from experts. Grade 3 for total upgrades to owners specification ... (simplicity itself :lol: )
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by johnw »

Frankoid wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:55 am What about listed status, like a listed building? . Grade 1 for totally original cars. Cars can only be original once, but sometimes this is just not an option. so grade 2 where restoration can be done to original specks under guidance from experts. Grade 3 for total upgrades to owners specification ... (simplicity itself :lol: )
I like the idea of a grading system. So an original unrestored seat covering, will get top marks on the day as it is in Grade 1 condition, unless another car has an original unrestored seat covering in better condition, also Grade 1. Next in the hierarchy would come, restored seat covering, Grade 1a, but still original, 3rd spot would be the perfect retrim in original spec leather etc, Grade 2. The same could go for paintwork. No one competing against a car with original paintwork can beat it points wise. Perhaps paintwork would need to be marked panel wise where partial resprays have happened. I haven't seen a concourse sheet for some years.

I am concerned though, the concourse nearly folded completely a few years ago due to lack of entrants. This year due to world events, who knows what for sure, membership is down 10% according to the magasine.
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by colin7673 »

Really to only way you can tell nowdays if the car is "as left factory" is to have the judges walk around with the Calver book checking, and options that have been changed from that book is no longer original
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by johnw »

Frankoid wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:55 am What about listed status, like a listed building? . Grade 1 for totally original cars. Cars can only be original once, but sometimes this is just not an option. so grade 2 where restoration can be done to original specks under guidance from experts. Grade 3 for total upgrades to owners specification ... (simplicity itself :lol: )
I like the idea of a grading system. Another variation could go like this: So an original unrestored seat covering, will get top marks on the day for that part of the marking, as it is in Grade 1 condition, unless another car has an original unrestored seat covering in better condition, also Grade 1. A seat can be grade 1 and score 3 points, or Grade 1 and score 7... A used interior swap might be graded as Grade 1c. Grade 2 would be the perfect retrim in original spec leather etc. The same could go for paintwork, this might be easier until someone decides on a body swap! No one competing against a car with original paintwork can beat it grade wise. Perhaps paintwork would need to be marked panel wise where partial resprays have happened. I haven't seen a concourse sheet for some years. So the points would need to be awarded into grades. You could still get a very high mark for a top car, it is just that some of those points might be for grade 3 restored items, and you might get pipped to the prize by a car with a lower score, but one or two of those items might be grade 2 items.

I am concerned though, the concourse nearly folded completely a few years ago due to lack of entrants. This year due to world events, who knows what for sure, membership is down 10% according to the magasine.
Have you seen our stolen Jensen FF 119/011 https://twitter.com/jensenffdotcom
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by Steve Payne »

All very interesting points and but are we not forgetting one important thing?

We are in a car club and cars are for driving. Turning them into museum pieces seems a waist.

In another few years the way we can use our cars is likely to be restricted either through legislation or some form of taxes.

Personally I would not worry about the finish of a component but more does it work and can you get out and drive it.

An original Jensen what ever model is unlikely to be a car you would want to drive more than a few yards, remember what these cars were made for, not for polishing but for driving.

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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by colin7673 »

colin7673 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:29 am By not doubting your knowledge on these matters David, or any judges at concours, I understand there was a "standard fit' to all these cars, but as they where hand built is it possible that a customer had changes made in production, say, for the completed seats to be all leather ?

I ask only out of interest.
Thank you for answering my question David
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Julian
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by Julian »

Thread creep ....


What about late cars where there are no records ?

And mods that were made by later Jensen incarnations such as the Jensen Car Co. for an example ?
The work was done by Jensen, they were options and improvements Jensen actively promoted ...
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by Martin R »

DaveT wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:08 am This topic is for discussion.

At more than 1 JOC concours event, I have been asked to comment on the original materials used in the seat coverings for a 541, 541r or 541s.

The correct answer is that the seat base and the front side of the seat back are leather and the back of the seat back is a type of vinyl.

So, if it is appropriate to have originality points deducted for seats that are recovered in vinyl, should it also be reasonable to deduct points for seat backs that have been retrimmed in leather?

Comments welcomed


Thanks for reading this

Dave

Dave
It's my understanding that it's more about the fact that if two cars are nearly identical and one has "original" (original or the same as original) coverings in the same condition as the "non-original" car, the "original" car may score more highly than the the other.

I recall hearing that before my time in the club, there were two Interceptors in Concours which were so close, it was virtually impossible to score one more highly than the other.
In the end, the window's serial numbers were closely checked to see if one had matching original or replacement glass.
This may be hearsay.
The bottom line is, it's a Concours competition and I for one quite enjoy the cleaning process and the sense of achievement of ending up with a gleaming car, whilst also finding things which might otherwise be overlooked.
By that I mean the loose nuts on my drive shaft, the oil leak from an ageing oil hose or anything else for that matter.

Judging is by it's nature quite subjective and, there will always be people saying "car X car was far better than car Y".
It seems to me that such but comments are not usually made by the judges themselves but by casual observers or the owners themselves.

Too much chrome and bling might look great to many people's eyes but, our in Jensen Concours, I believe it's more about a great condition, clean, well presented car as opposed to being a Custom Car show.

I believe there's space for show queens and for those drivers who use their cars in all weathers regularly, hence the "Concours", "People's choice" and "Show & Shine".
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by shaun »

Nice response, Cowboy!

Fully agree with what you say.

Let the cars speak for themselves and then differentiate if necessary.
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by Martin R »

shaun wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:46 pm Nice response, Cowboy!
Yee -Haah :!: :wink:
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by VFK44 »

Martin R wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:31 am
shaun wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:46 pm Nice response, Cowboy!
Yee -Haah :!: :wink:
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Re: Concours originality conundrum

Post by Martin R »

You found that on the Internet or did you photoshop it???? :shock: :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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