Princess Grey

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johnw
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by johnw »

Wolfgang wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:41 pm Nowadays we're able to create nearly every colour looking like original, there is equipment available to measure the pigmentation, density, brilliance, reflection from cars standing in museums like Sinsheim, Schlumpf in Alsace and also in Zurich and then copy it to the owners car with modern paint and technique.
So Wolfgang, it sounds like the paint code is not the thing to use for this for archive purposes. People should use that as a starting point, adapt and scan until they get the right measurements from the applied paint on a surface. Ulric/Jensen Museum collects original samples, cut off bits of bodywork, cleans them up and gets them scanned, then archives the spectrograph readings. You are saying there is a lot more than that, which I can completely understand. The depth when you look into the paint, and size of the metallic particles being obvious variables not related to colour. How the paint is sprayed affects how deep the metal particles land in the base coat. I just loved some of the paint on TVRs around 2000, especially reflex paints, mind blowing. I took some car spotters to the Schlumpf museum, they had never seen black paint like 1930s cellulose, it is just something else isn't it, but with just a colour spectrograph I guess it would just simply read as a black.

Are these water based paints as suitable for home use as cellulose would you say?
Have you seen our stolen Jensen FF 119/011 https://twitter.com/jensenffdotcom
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Wolfgang
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by Wolfgang »

Dear John,

as I remind the colour cards have been invented in the 60's or even later, but I have to ask... Pre WW2 cars are painted in charges, so even in the same series you may have difference in colour and the roughness was much higher than today. There was only one sort of primer - you can not get him as per today.
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Just send you some photos of a service car I was buying recently, in the the top of the truck you see where the stickers have been placed and how and in which way the colour has changed around, side door I polished, the wall behind is 'original', the front we polished 3 times then coat finished it again - you're seeing the difference. And this car is around 10 years old...

Colour codes in nowadays times are giving you a relative exact matching colour but it still depends on distance, continuity in painting and temperature i the chamber.
There is another MKII 'King TUT', he has his origin in UK, my one was originated in California, so my one bleached out much more and nowadays it's one or to shades 'brighter'...
So if I'm painting only parts of my car I have to adapt my nowadays 'colour' - and if we're once able to put the cars side by side there will be a slight difference in colour...

yes you may use cellulose painting , but you have to adapt the nozzle - perhaps the pressure and the heating temperature of the chamber of the heating beamer...

Much luck
Wolfgang
Jensen Interceptor MKIII convertible
Ford GT 40
Ferrari F430 F1 (sold)
Lotus Super Seven (Westfield)
Mercedes SLK AMG
and some others...
www.doctors-garage.be
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felixkk
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by felixkk »

A Swiss member once mentioned an expert in automotive paint, so I thought I'd look her up (assuming that there probably weren't all that many women in this field): Dr Gundula Taut

https://omnia-online.jimdofree.com/the- ... e-10-2020/

On her website is a paint swatch from Duco which looked quite old (attached at the bottom of the post), I thought that was interesting.

I found a ICI Duco paint called "Princess Grey" when I searched the web (although it may not be the same colour and even if then it may not be much help):
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The pamphlet is from 1960, from ICI India(!)

"Duco was a trade name assigned to a product line of automotive lacquer developed by the DuPont Company in the 1920s. Under the Duco brand, DuPont introduced the first quick drying multi-color line of nitrocellulose lacquers made especially for the automotive industry...
...It is now used by Nexa Autocolor — formerly ICI Autocolor and now a division of Pittsburgh-based PPG Industries — as a tradename for automotive enamels in Asia. " (Wikipedia)
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Simca has a Gris Princesse or Gris de Paris (there were two colours by the same name, the other more blue), Code 3303, dating from 1958 (it seems):
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Related:

From "True Blue: DuPont and the Color Revolution", by Regina Lee Blaszczyk, The Science History Institute

"Next Ketcham unveiled DuPont’s full-fledged tribute to color engineering: Duco Calibrated Colors, a palette of 290 carefully selected hues. By 1932 American paint companies had 11,500 different automotive colors in their inventories. There was no logic behind this growth, which stemmed from a lack of planning. Many lacquer makers still offered colors that no one had ordered for several years. But the bigger problem lay in manufacturing practices. Some producers found it difficult to control chemical reactions in their factories, generating “as many as 80 variations of one original color.” Harried automakers exacerbated the problem when they accepted the off-color releases. Things also got worse when car companies switched paint suppliers, which unsuccessfully tried to match competitors’ colors. The end result was an increasing number of mismatches."

https://www.sciencehistory.org/distilla ... revolution

Anyway, after some delay (the car-elevator of our garage was broken, I couldn't get the car out of the garage), the C-V8 is finally at the paintshop. We'll see what they come up with.
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Last edited by felixkk on Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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johnw
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by johnw »

I will put that link to the paint expert again Felix. It was too interesting to miss and in English:
https://omnia-online.jimdofree.com/the- ... e-10-2020/

Some of her website, (not the English article linked above) are written in German, no worries they get translated by Google really well for anyone that follows links to her website. If you look at this period colour photo of a CV8, you can clearly see the paint finish looks very different to any modern metallic paint.
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It would have been single coat cellulose metallic paint. Very different look. It looks like the paint finish you uncovered Felix on your car. It doesn't have that depth of shine that a modern lacquer top coat gives. It always looks to a modern eye like it could do with a good polish, or that it is missing a clear coat. I am wondering if that is what is under the red respray on this FF, which explains why I couldn't see a clear coat, and thus thought the clear coat had peeled with the respray.

Our paint expert goes further than me in preservation, peeling off resprays and touching up the original paint underneath. Hmm. About this FF paint, I am now wondering if Jensen were using single coat Cellulose metallic as late as 1968/69? Does anyone know when they switched over?
Thinking about it, I have not seen a 541 with the proper metallic paint, apart from at Medway Interceptors.
Have you seen our stolen Jensen FF 119/011 https://twitter.com/jensenffdotcom
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felixkk
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by felixkk »

Thinking about it, I have not seen a 541 with the proper metallic paint, apart from at Medway Interceptors.
Francis may still have the original metallic paint on his 541S. I seem to remember that up until the mid/late 50s only lighter colours were available in metallic?
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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Wolfgang
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by Wolfgang »

metallic colour at that time was made with aluminium pigmentation , nowadays there are special composites used -also allowing that a colour is getting rainbow effects depending on the sunlight reflection...
also the quality (roughness) of the finishing is today in micrometers, if you take the so named 'Klavierlack' applied at the Volkswagen Phaeton or Rolls Royce, Bentley or the ceramic finish applied on Ferrari, Bugatti and other super-sportive cars - it's quite different to the paintings on our cars.

getting the original colour cards is a good base, my partner -owning the body shop- is always mixing the colours individually, then deciding with nozzle to use, adapting the pressure and then choosing distance and speed to paint (all out of experience - more than 30 years...).

But he's also doing race helmets and fuel tanks for Harleys...

we've done my Lotus last year in british racing green (before it was black) - it has taken a lot of time to find the matching colour.

It's a challenge - good luck.
Wolfgang
Jensen Interceptor MKIII convertible
Ford GT 40
Ferrari F430 F1 (sold)
Lotus Super Seven (Westfield)
Mercedes SLK AMG
and some others...
www.doctors-garage.be
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felixkk
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by felixkk »

metallic colour at that time was made with aluminium pigmentation , nowadays there are special composites used -also allowing that a colour is getting rainbow effects depending on the sunlight reflection...
Update from Andi Kreis: the C-V8 was at the paint shop to get the paint matched, apparently they were able to scan the colour. Getting a close match to the original colour turned out to be only one of the issues. The other factor was that the new paint is more metallic than the original, and also reflects differently. They used the finest metallic flakes available.

The next issue was the glossiness of the paint. He is now doing the samples with a less glossy finish to see how it compares with the original, also to see if the metallic is less visible under the matt coat. I'll be picking up the car in the next few days and I'll post some pictures.
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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felixkk
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by felixkk »

We have the first four samples, they were scanned from the paint on the C-V8. They are pretty close, especially sample 02. In general the metallic finish is quite difficult to replicate, in the original paint there are (to my) no visible flakes. The flakes used are the smallest ones which were available.

01 Cromax Pro 723 Mercedes Cubanitsilber
- in matt and gloss finish
- is slightly too red

02 Cromax Pro C66 Renault Gris Beige
- in matt and gloss finish
- is slightly too dark, depending on the light (in bright sunlight not, because it is more reflective than the original paint)

03 Cromax Pro AG06 Nissan Lt Grey Half Gloss
- is slightly too blue/not enough yellow

04 Cromax Pro DC Renault Dark Silver
- is slightly too blue/not enough yellow
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01 Cromax Pro 723 Mercedes Cubanitsilber
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02 Cromax Pro C66 Renault Gris Beige
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03 Cromax Pro AG06 Nissan Lt Grey Half Gloss
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04 Cromax Pro DC Renault Dark Silver
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Photos in the original size can be downloaded here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1qof7flb8xmf ... smd7a?dl=0
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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felixkk
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by felixkk »

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Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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johnw
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by johnw »

I am a bit confused now, are you trying to match your newer VW paint respray, or to replicate the old Princess Grey cellulose finish?

Cromax Pro is a water based base coat. It looks like your samples have been sprayed with a top clear coat as well. Very nice and eco friendly base. Might be safe to DIY spray at home. That is the sort of paint I was considering using at first. Various people told me water based paints are "rubbish" compared to 2 pack, which can be a killer at home although I know people on here that use 2 Pack at home with an air fed mask.

I recently was told that around 1969 to 1970 Jensen switched from one coat cellulose metallic to a two coat base over clear. So for me, the paint I was seeing on an FF panel was more or less as it was in the day, and not a base that had suffered clear coat peel!! There was me about to try and restore it by spraying it with clear coat! I assumed the respray was peeling away with the clear.

Some EU countries are banning high VOC paints. Hopefully post BREXIT the UK will continue to allow cellulose paints to be made and sold. They are nice and cheap as they are old tech. They chip more easily, and are apparently difficult to spray in metallic. They are a totally different finish and incomparable to a modern clear over base as you are finding out. Even water based VS 2 Pack has differences, so many combinations of mixing different bases and clears, plus flake size, spray distance. I am starting to appreciate what Wolfgang is saying. Also the age fade effect.

Here is the first UK cellulose supplier google showed me, they are cheap and cheerful, mix paints, and do cellulose metallic and non metallic.
https://www.jawel.co.uk/index.php?main_ ... th=147_151

I have no idea if a modern cellulose metallic will be a better match, but given that the use of a clear coat totally changes the look of the paint, I would be surprised if you could replicate the old finish from all angles and lighting conditions using any clear over base system.
Have you seen our stolen Jensen FF 119/011 https://twitter.com/jensenffdotcom
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felixkk
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by felixkk »

No plans to respray the C–V8, we're trying to match the colour for another C-V8 owner who is restoring his car. I'm almost sure that not using a water based paint is not an option here in Switzerland. Two of the samples have clear coats in matt and in gloss. The matt looks more correct, but in the sunlight it makes surprising little difference. And I did not polish or wax the existing remains, so that could be a bit deceiving.
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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johnw
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Re: Princess Grey

Post by johnw »

Riviera Couleurs in Vevey lists cellulose car paint on their website, and have a physical shop as well. Cellulose thinners seem to be commonly available. https://www.magasindepeinture.ch/de/154 ... k-5kg.html

I met "Dave" at the JOC in the 1990s, and he had resprayed his totally stunning CV8 Regal Red at home in the garage using Cellulose. Being a non metallic it was easier. He said it was the first car he had painted, and that it was simple to redo small areas until the whole thing was perfect. His car won the JOC Presidents Cup that year.
Have you seen our stolen Jensen FF 119/011 https://twitter.com/jensenffdotcom
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