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E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:24 pm
by Steve Payne
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... e10-petrol

For those still running there original fuel pipes it looks like you might think about changing them soon.

Personally I use PTFE fuel pipe with a stainless over braid. Looks neat, virtually indestructible and most importantly works with anything they want to put in the fuel in the future. The down side is they need proper ends crimping on as jubilee clips will not go tight enough.

Steve

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:09 pm
by Tonyb66
Hi Steve is it an easy /expensive upgrade ,Anthony

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:11 pm
by Grant
Steve Payne wrote:Personally I use PTFE fuel pipe with a stainless over braid. Looks neat, virtually indestructible and most importantly works with anything they want to put in the fuel in the future. The down side is they need proper ends crimping on as jubilee clips will not go tight enough. Steve

Did you buy the correct crimper then Steve to do yours?

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:19 pm
by Steve Payne
No Grant, I get my local hydraulic shop to make them up for me.

He usually does them next day, all I need to do is tell him the length needed.

Steve

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:21 pm
by Steve Payne
Tonyb66 wrote:Hi Steve is it an easy /expensive upgrade ,Anthony


From memory the pipes cost about £80 ish.

I also recommend the pipes are insulated, modern fuels vaporize at a lower temp and we all know how much heat Interceptors generate and fuel pumps don't pump vapour. Decent insulation will cost another £50 ish.

Steve

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:52 pm
by colin7673
I thought many garages sold fuel as E10 anyway, when I fill up here the pump already has an E10 sticker on it

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:41 am
by MikeWilliams
What about the carb internals? Any changes needed?

Mike

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:07 pm
by colin7673
MikeWilliams wrote:What about the carb internals? Any changes needed?

Mike


When we took the cars to the US nearly two years ago, there wasn't any problems using E10, lucky enough though we was able to find the odd garage with "normal" fuel..

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:01 pm
by RayR
Probably not a problem running with E10 but will run a little leaner. Worth a tune if you are optimising performance.

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:52 pm
by Gary-D
Steve Payne wrote:No Grant, I get my local hydraulic shop to make them up for me.

He usually does them next day, all I need to do is tell him the length needed.

Steve


Hi Steve, As usual good advice, would you know the legnth needed as a shopping list? would be handy to have prior to tackling the job.

Thanks

Gary

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:57 pm
by Steve Payne
Hi Gary

Sorry no, it depends on your car.

You can use a piece of string to get good idea.

Steve

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:07 am
by AH1951
https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/etha ... tudy-finds

Screenshot_20200328-080912_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20200328-080912_Samsung Internet.jpg (71.45 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:23 am
by kees
E10 petrol.

(The text is not perfect as this is translated from Dutch using Google Translate with only a few corrections)

There is a lot of ado about the recently introduced Euro95 (E10) in which the percentage of alcohol (mainly ethanol) has increased from a maximum of 5% in the old Euro95 (E5), which has been trouble-free for decades, to a maximum of 10% in the new Euro95 (E10).
In my view it compares to what happened when unleaded petrol was introduced. A gap in the market was created at the time by insisting that valve seats would wear prematurely because the lack of lubricating effect of lead in the petrol. As a result, many billions of pounds were earned worldwide by engine rebuilders fitting hardened valve seats, while in most cases it turned out to be unnecessary. There were only a limited number of cars that needed harder valve seats. Also all kinds of expensive cans and bottles with petrol additives came on the market, many of which had little or no effect.
Before the Second World War and long after that, much higher concentrations of alcohol were found in many petrol brands because of the oil scarcity and / or to boost the quality. If there were any effects, this did not lead to gigantic problems. Why would it happen now? I am not worried.

Theoretically, there may be few problems:
- Degradation of rubber and plastic parts such as membranes and hoses. Alcohol may be harmful to some rubbers and plastics.
- Corrosion of metals such as in the fuel tank, fuel pump and carburettors. Alcohol can cause corrosion, whether or not due to hygroscopy.
- Alcohol could loosen deposits and coatings in the petrol tank.

I regularly see old cars with the original petrol hoses that are 50+ years old. Incomprehensible !! It is irresponsible and dangerous. My own Jensen-Healey was an example of this. When I bought the car, the original 1974 hoses were split on the ends and rock hard as were the plastic hoses / pipes between the carburettors. Replacing these was one of the first jobs on the car I did. Now after about 12 years they are still in perfect condition, despite alcohol in the petrol. I have always tanked Euro95 (E5 / now E10) and also regularly Blue One 95 (E15, now also E10). No problems at all.
It is still common practice to cut of the split ends of hoses and push the hose further onto the connector. Do not!!! If a hose shows cracks or tears or hardens, you have to replace ALL petrol hoses, not only under the bonnet but also from the petrol pump and the fuel tank in the trunk. Also do this if you are unsure about the condition of the hoses. Costs a few pounds only. A ruptured hose resulting in a fire costs a little more !!
This is nothing new and has been true since the introduction of motorized vehicles and long before I drove my first Fiat 500 in the mid-1960's. It's called good maintenance!! It has nothing to do with alcohol in the petrol.
Regular checks are in order. It is not likely that the hoses will dissolve or crumble prematurely due to alcohol, it does not happen with E5 and there is no reason to assume that it will with E10. If it occurs, the hoses are simply due for replacement. Diaphragms and O-rings of acceleration pumps, petrol pumps, carburettors also need to be replaced occasionally and / or will fail over time. This has always been the case, with or without alcohol. Remember the repair kits at Halfords for e.g. petrol pumps in the good old days when petrol was still 100% petrol? At most it may happen a bit more frequent, but I very much doubt it.
Corrosion of the petrol tank, as well as the dissolving of any previously applied coating, can occur with both alcohol-free petrol and E5 / E10. Moisture always gets into the fuel tank due to condensation. Petrol without alcohol absorbs a little bit of water, the rest ends up in the bottom of the tank if the car is not driven regularly. When there is alcohol in the petrol, it absorbs a little more water, but eventually the same happens. When the car is regularly driven and the tank is filled up before the car is stored, there is hardly any moisture absorption (and therefore corrosion). If the tank was internally coated at an earlier stage, that was not without reason. It was probably no longer serviceable and in fact should have been replaced at the time.
There must be a fair amount of water in the petrol before it separates out. This causes rust particles and water to enter the system and the carburettors through the petrol pump, causing them to become clogged. With the current E5 I have never noticed anything. Why it would happen with E10 is not clear to me.
The standard fuel filter between tank and fuel pump or after the fuel pump prevents this dirt from getting further into the fuel system. A possible water separator like with diesel engines might prevent water in the petrol to the carburettors, but it is a bit of an “over kill”.
Rusted fuel tanks are of all times and are more due to (half) empty tanks that are lying about for years, outside under a tarp, in a scrap yard or a damp shed / garage.
After a long time, the petrol, including the alcohol, evaporates, which increases the water content. When the petrol (with or without alcohol) is in the car's fuel tank for a long time, the quality deteriorates because the lighter fractions evaporate. In rare cases you may see some gumming up. This was no different in the old days.
Alcohol may corrode the aluminium / zinc / tin / lead alloys of the petrol pumps and carburettors. With E5 petrol I have not noticed anything so far. The many SU fuel pumps and a few DellOrto carburettors that have been used with E5 and that I have repaired / overhauled, rarely show damage, the majority is spotlessly clean inside, like new. I rarely see gum formation, but this may occur when the car is driven irregularly.
In the ‘70’s when I worked at TNO (Similar to TRRL-BSI in the UK) during experiments on alternative fuels, I have seen some damage in cars running on 100% ethanol. Mainly corrosion with certain aluminium / zinc / tin / lead alloys. Plastic fuel lines also did not cope well.
All in all, I am not to afraid for any negative consequences of E10. In recent years I have often filled up with Blue One 95 (formerly 15% alcohol, now also 10%) and I do not notice anything so far, same in my “modern” approx. 20 year old cars.
I suspect that the many additives to keep the petrol in good condition only make sense for the wallets of its producers, a Déja Vu.
If you do not trust the use of E10, you can of course always fill up with 98 octane premium fuels such as Total Excellium, Shell V-power, BP Ultimate, Esso Synergy etc. or Euro98. These usually contain no or a maximum of 5% alcohol. In Germany you can even get petrol with an octane rating of more than 100 without alcohol. It costs more, but after all you don't drive tens of thousands of kilometres a year with your classic car, so financially there are no real consequences. However, do not forget to advance the ignition a few degrees when switching to 98 octane or higher to keep the engine running efficiently.
With classic cars in normal operation, the petrol in the tank is no problem, even after winter storage.
Theoretically, the car should use a little more with E10 because alcohol has a little less energy content than petrol so that the mixture should be enriched very slightly. In practice, however, little or nothing will be noticed.

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:46 am
by Steve Payne
As much as I do agree with the replacement of fuel pipes I think the do it once principal is a better way to go hence my thoughts on using PTFE.

On cars that I have fitted conventional new rubber hoses I have noticed a deterioration in 3 or 4 years even on cars that don't get used much, this is usually cracking on the outer layer but still a worry after such a short period. I have even tried using the fuel pipe that is supposed to be Ethanol resistant.

I was recently working on an Interceptor that was very original and the owner was very proud of this, I told him that I would recommend changing the fuel pipes and hoses and he looked shocked. He wants to keep it original. What can you say to owners who prefer originality over safety?

Steve

Re: E10 Fuel to be introduced from next year

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:53 am
by slotcarone
Steve just yesterday I responded the same way when someone that is restoring a 289 Cobra was planning on using 50 year old NOS brake pads! :)