Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

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felixkk
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Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by felixkk »

In the Oct 1962 issue of Autocar it is written that the C-V8 Mk1 is available with a Borg-Warner manual transmission. The Chrysler A-833 was introduced a year or two later. There is no mention of that option in the Mk1 Jensen brochure. Was this the case? Did any C-V8s exist with the Borg-Warner transmission?
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Richard Calver writes (https://www.richardcalver.com/article_cv8.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

„The manual gearbox was an interesting, if unpopular, option on C-V8s. All of the manuals were built in RHD and most of them were Mk IIs with the 361 ci engine. The manual setup, when tested by reviewers, was considered a bit too heavy in the box and clutch for pleasurable motoring whereas the column shift TorqueFlite was a revelation to most testers, many of whom raved about it. The manual gearbox used by Jensens, the A-833, had been introduced by Chrysler in 1964 and was designed to withstand the worst stresses which a race-tuned 426 Hemi could throw at it. Behind the standard 361 it looked a bit overengineered and few buyers wanted to pay an extra £100 for the dubious pleasure of doing battle with the heavy clutch and shifter. The main drawback of the A-833 was that, as engine revs increased, so did the effort needed to operate the clutch. This made the car tolerable at normal speeds but a real handful if driven in anger. The kindest of the reviewers who tried it on the Goodwood race circuit in 1965 described it as “a real he-man’s car”.“
Felix Kistler
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Joerg
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Re: Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by Joerg »

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2 ... 82444.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was such a transmission behind some Mopar cars of that time, but I doubt it has ever found it´s way into a CV8.
They where all colum shifter, what makes it nearly impossible to install in our cars - floor shifting was 2aftermarket only".
The Laycock de Normanville overdrive was in no version strong enough for the Chrysler torque, and the BorgWarner box has their own overdrive - but in later years.

So simply "magazin thales"
I own some of the odd Jensen 8)
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Re: Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by felixkk »

Hi Joerg

Thanks, you of course know why I'm asking. Your 541 has a Muncie, right? I honestly don't know much about Borg-Warner, but I'm surprised about the column shifter- or does that only relate to the T-85? I had been focused mainly on the T-10 (4 gear). I don't think that the magazine made it up out of the blue, who knows.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transm ... smissions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to Paul Cangialosi, Muncie transmission historian, technician, and author of Muncie 4-Speed Transmissions: How to rebuild and modify, the Muncie four-speed transmission has its roots back to 1935 and the U.S. patent number 3,088,336 along with an engineer named James W. Fodrea. This patent number, according to Cangialosi, can be found cast into most Muncie four-speed main cases. Fodrea’s legacy is far-reaching, extending into popular transmissions around to this day, yet most have no idea who he was.

According to Cangialosi, two companies, Borg and Beck and Warner Gear, merged in 1928 to form BorgWarner. The T-85 three-speed transmission was one result of that merger. The T-10 four-speed was an evolution of the T-85 three-speed transmission, with both of these transmissions being quite similar in appearance. If you’ve ever looked at a BorgWarner T-10 and a Muncie four-speed and gotten them mixed up, you are not alone because the Muncie (M20, M21, and M22) is a direct descendant of the T-10 according to Cangialosi. The Saginaw four-speed box is quite similar to both the T-10 and Muncie four-speed transmissions. However, neither compares to the Muncie in terms of strength.

That the Muncie has much in common with the T-10 is no accident. It was a matter of economics when Chevrolet needed a four-speed manual transmission for the Corvette in the mid-1950s. According to Cangialosi, GM took the basic T-10 design and beefed it up to conceive the Muncie M20 and M21 four-speed transmissions, which arrived in 1963.
Last edited by felixkk on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

www.jcc.ch / office@jcc.ch
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Re: Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by John Staddon »

There was one C-V8 with a floor change auto-box, but I don't know which make it was. 112/2315 was kept by the factory until the end of JML when it was bought by Frank Dixon, JML evidently offered it for sale in 1969 as the letter below and the letter does describe the transmission type, but not the make.
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In addition 104/2164 was described as having a Borg-Warner auto transmission when it was used to set the caravan towing speed record, but only in the Caravan magazine report on the record attempt, there is no mention of the record attempt in the service file at all.

But as both cars were automatic this doesn't help answer the original question.

John
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C-V8 Mk111 112/2334
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Re: Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by felixkk »

Thank you, John!
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

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Re: Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by Joerg »

T-85 was column shifter only (thats why you can find it also in Mopar cars (the ones with 3 speed coloum shifting) - all other Mopars had the 4 speed A833 box. There was a time where column shifting was "elegant" while floor shifting was truck and race driver shifting :-)

T-10 or Muncie or later T5 or today TKO are floor shifter.
For the Hemi 541 I would go for the TKO 500 - cheap, strong, reliable and 5 speed.
I own some of the odd Jensen 8)
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Re: Manual C-V8 MkI or IIs with Borg-Warner transmission?

Post by felixkk »

Thanks for the advice! I was interested in period options, and what Jensen would or could have installed.

From the article in Hemmings on the code 281 Chrysler 300G (code 281 = three-speed Borg Warner manual transmission as option) :

"so for 1960, Chrysler upped the 300’s game with the introduction of a ... four-speed manual transmission sourced from French manufacturer Pont-A-Mousson. The tactic worked, and Chrysler once again stood atop the speed chart for the Flying Mile."

"The big change for 1961 was the adoption of the heavy-duty Borg-Warner Chrysler three-speed, which replaced the Pont-A-Mousson gearbox. Some allege this was for durability purposes, but equally likely was the fact that the French manufacturer wasn’t happy with the low volume of units ordered by Chrysler, and instead opted to end the relationship."

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/01/0 ... the-block/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Bristol 407 ('61-'63) with the 313 CUI Chrysler V8 had the Torqueflite automatic gearbox "as the only transmission option". Somwhere else it is stated that there was a manual option, which would have been the Pont-à-Mousson. But not one buyer chose that option.



Cars to look for, which used the Borg-Warner T-10 as an original equipment unit, were:

1957-'63 Corvette
1957-'63 Chevrolet full-size sedan
1961-'63 Pontiac, Olds F85, Buick Specials
1960-'65 Ford and Mercury full-size, except station wagon
1960-'65 Ford Fairlane, Falcon, Mustang, Mercury Comet
1963 Dodge and Plymouth V-8, except Hemi
1968-'70 AMC Rambler, Rebel, Ambassador, Marlin, and American
1971 AMC Hornet and Matador
1968-'74 AMC Javelin and AMX

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2 ... 79584.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
JOC 9465
Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

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