AF Concorde- a national disgrace

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Tim SP
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Tim SP »

I am really chuffed with the response everyone, I know nothing of such matters, just digested what there is (if you dig more) to see.
Michael- thanks for that input- that is exactly what I was on about & why something very, very wrong & criminal went on??

The gentleman that know these machines, thanks for your input, its awesome to hear from people that are of the 'coal face'.

It can well be said that its time to retire etc, but to not keep a flying example of any icon is without any doubt an utter disgrace, so is not given permission to fly as CAA did with civil E.E.L.T5

As for its time to put to rest- well ofcourse we have all seen the Last Vulcan Guy martin thing- well they said such things of other aircraft, well very odd considering the C47 / DC3 that have flown in cases with zero spent since WW11 & the Fat Albert (C130) that also is still service- some are are biblicly old, loads of kit, B52?? Are we saying that Concorde,Vulcan,Harrier, EEL are way more complex than these types?? Maybe so- but can we not keep one of each as a memorial for now & the future??
Maybe not, as Concorde flying even for the Queens birthday would only rimind the world we are going backward-no?

Thats bin the car & use a horse.
Concorde tyres- well how about nothing else that failed, not a single loss nor crash due to airframe/avionics/engine.
So the only dodge part thats is contracted out ie to a tyre company, and we ground it.

All I'm saying is to keep not one alive was/is a crime, I wish the Queen could mention her distaste in public.
As for other air craft, come on some poxy aircoach with great record?? Thats like comparing a RT bus to the Bluebird & even that couldnt carry a bunch of passengers.

We are talking mack 2 60,000- the like of nothing seen then or since.
If you won the Euro billions- you could do all the obvious vacuous stuff- but you couldnt fly that bird.

What a shame.
As said, a giant leap backward.
I am in utter ore of the minds that make such things happen, being a very low rent bloke it just makes me even prouder that these things happen, I cant understand why anyone wouldn't be proud too- I still recall running home as about 17:00 Concorde would fly over Shooters Hill (nr Greenwich) you miss whats gone, I sure miss that!


Personally am proud that our Island & our money and ofcourse with France & combined brilliance, made it happen- its sad its gone, that all.
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Chris C
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Chris C »

If anyone is really interested I recommend reading the accident report:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Arcnewal »

It's a shame that 'Alliance', Concordes replacement, never made it to the manufacturing stage. Aérospatiale, BAe Systems, and DASA from Germany teamed up to create it, however I believe after a G7 Summit in 1999 all of the countries involved were told to halt their efforts.

Apparently it would've been just under 300ft long, have a wing span of 160ft, carry between 250-300 passengers, have an improved range of 10,000km and have an increased speed of Mach 2.2 (1687mph).

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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Michael Richardson »

Thanks Chris for that link. I have read the report,and my comments above were confirmed. I must say that the thoroughness of these air accident investigations are amazing,yes,it was Concorde ,so a big deal. You almost feel the tension in the cockpit as you read the printout of the CVR. I have maintained my thoughts that this explainable accident should not have bought about the final demise of supersonic transport as it did (well,in our lifetime anyway).
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by colin7673 »

As it has been said, by someone famous, 'If you wish to see the future of passenger flight, you will have to look in a museum'





But Tim, its not just Concorde that this great country has lost, the list is very long, you only have to look at motor vehicle Industry, when Britain had a motor manufacture Industry.

Now there is a motor manufacture Industry In Britain. There is a difference.
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Grant »

colin7673 wrote:As it has been said, by someone famous, 'If you wish to see the future of passenger flight, you will have to look in a museum'
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by RockyUSA »

We are here in the USA did things in the 60s that we could not duplicate today.

Examples are the Apollo program, the X-15 hypersonic aircraft, and the SR 71.

That quote is so true.

We can’t achieve today what has already been demonstrated

It shows what can be done when a country had some has some gumption, and a national will to excel. I am afraid we have lost that....

We can’t even get our astronauts to the ISS without the Russians.

Thank Gawd for guys like Elon Musk (Space-X) and Jeff Bezos (Blue Origen).

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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by RAP72 »

saw 2 B52s overhead today in close formation - check when they were built and how long they will be flying for.

Also this quote always amused me
“As I hurtled through space, one thought kept crossing my mind - every part of this rocket was supplied by the lowest bidder.”
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Steve Payne »

What about the TSR2? that was an amazing aircraft years ahead of its time and we could have sold 100's of them around the world.

On its test flight it outrun the Lightning chase aircraft without even selecting reheat and the pilot still had the undercarriage down.

It could do Mach 1 at 50 feet with valve technology radar, even the Tornado with its 4 computers struggled to do that.

Various reasons were given for it not being put into production but the reason I believe that stacks up was the US were afraid we were going to out do there sales and because we still owed them a lot of money after the war we had to squash the program.

When you see one in the flesh it is amazing how big it is.

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Tim SP
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Tim SP »

Steve, utterly forgot the TSR2, I know little apart from what I was told by Enthusiast's like Steve Johnson & John Crundwell- both fans, also Steve showing me around the only thing to prove it was viable- despite the want to destroy all evidence- hmm how funny, so deffo not political then??!!

As Steve P says, well on that who would bother buying a F4 or B52 if you could buy a TSR?? Hmmm

Well- I am just glad that genius does sometimes rule over cost or political pressure.

As for the moon, I think thats possibly not as hard as putting 100 people in their sunday best, eating & drinking as they enjoy Mack2 at 60k'
That a Moon landing & Concorde flew the same year is truly amazing.

If we listened to 'them' we would likely like in a cave!

So a cheers to the pioneers, designers, engineers,visionary's- & the people that supported them & saw that genius - thank god for them, may that spirit never be dimmed.

Cue the Elgar, bring on a De Havilland Mosquito at full merlin chat!
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Superheat »

For what its worth, I worked in Twickenham for some years and every day the sound of the Concorde always made me stop and watch such a beautiful aircraft. The closest I got to the Concorde was the stationary example at Duxford and I was always amazed that people paid so much for so little room on the aircraft.

The one thing that Concorde did well was to take passengers over Mach 1 and fly at supersonic speeds. We should admire a technology that has not been commercially bettered for 30 years!
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Michael Richardson »

Superheat. I am sure many of us have our Concorde stories...I never traveled in the aircraft,wish I had, However living on the south coast,I would arrive home from work at around six p.m. At about 6.15 each day there was a big bang as she cleared UK restricted airspace and opened up. Regular as clockwork. The other one was when I took my kids to Earls Court for the motorshow. During the day they had been given a couple of helium filled balloons from one of the car stands. I had a moment during lunch to get rid of them into the boot of my car. Returning later to go home I pulled the boot release lever to put our coats in. The Jap cars had counterbalanced lids which opened automatically. Out popped the two balloons,and rising rapidly upwards ,they were sucked up,never to be seen again by a Concorde on its finals to LHR 26 R. I think the sight of the aircraft at low level more than compensated for the childrens loss. They still remember it.
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by ernie100 »

Chris C wrote:If anyone is really interested I recommend reading the accident report:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting topic.I recently had the fortune to attend a lecture about this crash. However the original air investigation, as I understand it, has been shown in the courts to be flawed.

Firstly it is important to note that the report was published by the French Investigation team, with the British Air Investigation branch apparently refusing to endorse it: due to concerns which subsequently came out. The recently finished Court appeal/ investigation showed the original crash investigation to be incomplete in that it did not consider statements/ evidence and left out vital evidence. Indeed several vital documents that would have thrown light on the issues below went missing and were not made available.

1. Legally the French Investigation team were obliged to involve the British Air Investigation team at all stages including access to documents. They did not, for instance the British were not allowed to check the metal bracket (ie pick it up, only allowed to view it). They were also not allowed to view key documents.
2. The French Airport firefighters testified that the fire started and was evident before the spot on the runway where the metal bracket was.
3. There is substantial evidence that the plane was over fuelled. Indeed the fuel take showed the rupture as outward.
4. It is highly likely that the aircraft had not been trimmed for the overfuel before it took off.
5. The plane actually took off (rotated ) at under the recommended minimum take off speed
6. The aircraft was skewing to the left on the runway, it became clear that a spacer had been left out of the rebuild after the last service.
7. The pilots did not comply standing instructions not to take alter controls under I believe 3000 feet (especially engine shut down), with the overall load inlcuding fuel the plane could not keep altitude let alone climb on one engine. The shutdown engine was found not to be fatally faulty
8. There was a wind warning upon the plane starting its taxing. The parameters of the warning would have usualy caused most crews to abort the take off.
9. As stated above there were several documents missing (these would have been completed by the crew in the cockpit and relate to fuelling and trim etc)
10. The crew were under pressure to take off as they were behind schedule and if the flight had been cancelled a large number of chartered customers would have missed their connection and cruise ship.
An interesting article that summarises some of the above nicely:
http://www.askthepilot.com/untold-concorde-story/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Tim SP
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Tim SP »

Yup- it stinks.
I say again- would B.A ever, in a billion years get away with that?? No nor should they, so why has A.F??

Why is it people are quick to offer the 'retire as old' argument (based on nothing) when the aircraft had/has one of the best records, how many crashed then??
Thats retire 747's, how many have crashed?

I dont think I can think of a single icon that was betrayed after unique service, still unrivaled.

Air France is not responsible??, every part of that crash sits where it site.
As been pointed out.
It also seems rather odd that as this was a German charter flight (Air France 4590) & nothing mentioned about any of that.

AF knows, the world does their aircraft crashed due to the facts, all of which are NOT the fault of Concorde- how dare they smear that aircraft with their frailty.
Only Tony Blair has similar such gross arrogance, seemingly without any culpability.

How dare AF- I hope every man involved has sleepless nights thinking of those lost- to the end of thier days.
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Re: AF Concorde- a national disgrace

Post by Martin R »

Tim SP wrote: Why is it people are quick to offer the 'retire as old' argument (based on nothing) when the aircraft had/has one of the best records, how many crashed then??
Thats retire 747's, how many have crashed?
The above is a rather simplistic comment.
It is well known that just ONE old 747 will have flown more hours than the ENTIRE fleet of Concorde's ever did.
This one Concorde crash instantly made it one of the most dangerous aircraft types ever.
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