Insurance valuation advise

[MarkC]

Hi Guys suggestions please. My insurer's (Footman James) are questioning my self-assessment of my car (mix of A and A1 condition, but no concours) and my write-off value of £100k, and are requesting an independent assessment.

I am seeing cars in similar condition as mine going typically for £90-100k and two at £125k and £150k (all retail/trade) AND there is one private sale in the JOC owners club at the moment at £95k, so I thought my assessment was fair. Anyone know anyone in Northern Ireland who could provide an independent assessment?

Here she is:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcjensen/albums

[Chris_R]

Hi Mark,
First, talk to our Interceptor registrar re a valuation. Second, you could also contact Andy Medland (Toby on the forum) as I believe he achieved a 6 figure insurance agreement on his restored car - you might ask how he did it. Third, you cannot quote asking prices in a valuation. Insurance companies do not accept those. If you want to quote prices you need to find achieved prices, such as auction hammer prices. This is difficult as there are not very many examples but you only need to find 2 or 3 to establish a benchmark.
Bear in mind that the principle of any insurance contract is that in the event of a total loss the insurance company must put you back in the position you were in before the loss. This is an established and documented principle with rulings on the subject from the Financial Ombudsman. You do not need to insure on an agreed value basis, you can insure on a "market value" basis and state your market value based on what you see in the market. This is not quite the same as an agreed value. In this case if the worst happens you will obviously need to argue with the insurers the market value at the time and for that you will need a body of evidence of prices achieved for equivalent cars. The Financial Ombudsman does take a dim view of insurers that force a lower value on an insured and if you state a value of (say) £80k with some evidence but the insurer forces that down then if you were to appeal the Ombudsman is likely to side with you. There are documented cases for this (look for Ombudsman News).
However, yours has been extensively and comprehensively restored and therefore it would be very difficult for the insurer to replace your car with an equivalent on the open market so this introduces a different dynamic. Remember, these policies are designed for the average car where a set of boxes can be ticked and the computer can the work out the premium. You might need to look for a more specialist broker. I believe one of the reasons for a reluctance to agree such a value is that in the event of a total loss the insurers have an agreement with a salvage company that they will buy the car for 40% or even 50% of the value and they can't see £50k salvage in an Interceptor which would cause problems. Also Insurers don't permit you to "profit" from a total loss and this will also colour their thinking about a valuation. There have been cases ruled by the Ombudsman where the Ombudsman has sided with the Insurer after a policyholder claimed more than the car was worth (i.e. more than what it would cost to replace with an indentical model in the same condition) based on special wheels, special sound system or the like.
Hope all this helps.

[Joe Schiavone]

It would be of great value to all of those in the club who have done extensive restoration on their Interceptor. I personally have done a total strip and refinish disassembly of the motor compartment and tranny interior disassembly all new leather less boot rear end disassembly suspension brake disassembly and total rebuild of of calipers and upgrade to four piston setup in the front every hose metal and rubber. I could go on and on. I do drive my car but where do I get a comparable price for a non rusted car to start with. If the club could start in a confidential way of listing these type of restorations along with trading prices. I have Best of Show at pebble beach documented along with about a Dozen other top show winning examples. I Did the highest scoring Cadillac at a Cadillac National outscoring all of the trailer queens and we drove it over a thousand miles. The point I am trying to make is the club has the ability to help protect those of us who are in a dubious position in placing a value on our cars. If we got together and documented what and when we sold a vehicle so that the numbers were available we could all benifit. I can easily show you how to jump through the hoops placed in front of us. We just need a commitment by someone in the club. I would be willing to take it on in the States or coshare the responsibility. Any takers??? Will be glad to discuss. RacerJoe

[Mark1Stu]

Here's my general take:

The market has cooled. Jensen prices are sliding. At the higher end, cars are slow to sell unless the stars of the buyer and seller align.

Sale prices of £55k-75K is where the really nice (not concours) Interceptors reside. You can probably knock £10k off those prices for those wishing to off load relatively quickly. Beyond £75K, the quality of restoration, materials used/reused and attention detail (fit and finish) or cars which are strikingly original can add £000s - but its a rarefied atmosphere where buyers are thin on the ground and either naive (but well heeled) or very demanding (and well heeled).

For the meticulous 100% correct restorations, an insurance value of £125K is possible - but I cant think of many cars which fall into that category.

Spending a lot of money on a restoration does not guarantee its value - be it for sale or for insurance purposes. Sadly, there are too many recently restored cars which dont stand scrutiny. For example: Banana shaped sills, poor gaps to doors, bonnet and tailgate. Cheap interior retrims which, I would imagine, would have some of the original Jensen trim shop artisans turning in their grave if they were to witness them.

The JOC offers a valuation service - but the club doesn't currently have UK wide coverage to assist with valuations I cant get to or the owner isn't willing to fund (travel costs at 45p per mile both ways). I've a list of those members who have indicated they would be happy to assist me in evidencing cars (thank you again). More on this when I've seen / satisfied myself of the JOC insurance cover for such activity. I'll update on this after the next committee meeting, hopefully.

If an owner shops around, he or she may well me able to obtain an insurance valuation for their car which chimes with their view of its worth. So a JOC valuation is neither the only game in town, nor a guarantee of accuracy - but I try my best. The Hagerty tool is a useful guide, but has anomalies, and I persoanlly think a little behind the curve in values (albeit the market is currently coming back towards the stated figures).

Whether an insurance company ultimately pays out the agreed amount, if the worst were to happen, is anyone's guess. Perhaps it would be good to try and capture such insurance payout results.

Just my opinion.

Regards

Stuart

[Toby]

I have a multicar policy with Heritage and during my restoration they agreed a policy on a £100,000 value conditional on providing a written valuation and photographs on completion. just prior to completion i contacted Tristan Berry at Heritage and advised him that i would be looking to increase this above that figure and was advised that it would be referred to their underwriters at KGM. In view of this i thought it prudent to have a plan B and contacted Lockton who were prepared to cover me up to £200,000 on photographs alone and the premium reflected this. In the meantime i had professonal images taken and trailored my car 500 miles to Rejen and Jason provided a written valuation which reflected the cost of replacement. I went back to Tristan Berry with this and had also previously provided the link to my restoration blog on this Forum. The matter was referred to KGM and the enhanced figure was agreed, i was advised by Tristan that it was the detail included on the blog which tipped the balance in my favour and pursuaded the Chief Underwriter. I hope this is of some help Mark
Regards
Andy

Heritage 0121 246 5050
Tristan Berry <tberry@heritagecarinsurance.co.uk>
http://www.locktonperformance.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[EdwardB]

Mark,
I’d suggest you just telephone Hagerty and have a sensible conversation with them.
I’ve always found them very helpful, your car looks beautiful and your valuation appropriate.
Don’t be put off by the Hagerty Valuation Tool, they know it doesn’t accurately reflect current valuations.
Good luck.
Edward

[jvcarrier]

The most important aspect is to have an agreed value. Without this any “value” will only be a means to calculate a premium not an agreement to make a certain level of settlement. Without an agreed value contract you will be negotiating a settlement after some thing has happened - not a situation I would wish to be in.

An agreed value should allow you to replace the car with one of an equal standard without undue delay. This would mean going to one of the main dealers/restorers and paying a premium to be able to drive the car away.

With agreed values one has to remember that it caps the figure you will receive so in times of inflating car values one has to revise them on a regular basis. On the other side wise insurers should also monitor them when values are falling, however as yet I have not had an insurer refusing to renew at a prior years agreed value?

The quality of Jensen restorations are increasing rapidly as is the base price of cars for restoration, it is already hard to find a FF or SP that is ripe for restoration at a reasonable price and this trend will only continue and move on to interceptors.

[Joe Schiavone]

Mark IStu. Could you please post the highs and low for a number two Interceptor Drophead. I am not concerned where the car s are located but more so the numbers. The numbers here in the states are much fewer and only a top restoration fresh out of a top end proven shop could qualify as a One but even being fresh so few would qualify for totally originality as almost all of thes cars are modified to please what the owner wants. Any help would be much appreciated. RacerJoe

[Mark1Stu]

Hi RacerJoe,

Tim Clark is the JOC Registrar who covers Jensen Interceptor variants (including drop tops), and therefore Tim holds the ring on insurance values etc for these.

I'm sure Tim will visit the forum shortly and give you an idea. If not, I'll text him your request.


Cheers.

Stu

[Joe Schiavone]

Stu. Thank you. I understand what you mean as far as the cost of the restoration. It is important as far as the level of the finished product and the judged finish product in the eyes of independent judges or professional observers. I am personally trying to get a fair coaver age on my personal Drophead. Do you know of anyone on the east coast of the US that is knowledgeable on the Interceptor? I know these cars but as being the owner it is a bit difficult for me in the eyes of the ins company. Racer Joe

[jvcarrier]

Would your insurers not accept a uk valuation based on a portfolio of photos and details / invoices of work done. Even with a deduction for the cost of shipping it to the UK it would probably give you a more representive result.

If you look at http://www.allastonmartin.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they do remote valuations for Aston that most insurers will accept and their site provides details of the pictures etc that they require. A similar file on your car may be enough for one of the UK valuers to give a view.

[felixkk]

These are the values from the current issue of the UK Classic Cars magazine. The values seem to be, except for the FF, rather modest. My C-V8 would, according to them, be about 25‘000. At that price I could sell the car within 3 minutes. The car is insured more than twice of that value.

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[Mark1Stu]

Hi Joe,

I shall PM in a few minutes.

Regards

Stuart

[Chris_R]

Mark, I think Footman James, Hagerty, Heritage cater more towards the mass classic car market (if you could call the classic car market a mass market), after all volume is where the money is and are possibly less well equipped to deal with exceptions. Most policies from these brokers are underwritten by KRM.
Here is a different company that may be more sympathetic to your needs. https://www.rhspecialistinsurance.co.uk/about-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; work with ERS (https://www.ers.com/insurance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), a specialist insurer and partner of Goodwood and sponsor of the Goodwood Breakfast Clubs.

[Kevin Birch]

This is a very subjective view. I valued my car with my insurers last year at £30,000 which they accepted without challenge. I got Stuart to give his valuation at the International in Malvern this year. He actually took my car apart, he lets you know the good bits, as well as the bad bits. To be honest, he confirmed what I actually thought was wrong with my car, which is now well known in club, and was really pleased with his valuation, which was £35,000. It would be hard for the insurance companies to disregard this valuation, as it is very comprehensive, he lists all parts of the car and the condition each section is in.
The valuation service is available to every member, and worthwhile having done. Overseas is a bit more tricky, but Stuart is trying to get members involved to help him do the valuations on his behalf. I am considering helping him, being based in the Midlands, all he needs is good photos, and an inspection of the car, good mechanical knowledge is useful, which many of us have. He will do the valuation based on the information he gets, and he will advise on what to look for, if you are not too sure. It is down to us as club members to help ourselves, we all know insurance companies will try to wriggle out of paying what they can, so it is up to us to prove the value of our cars.
I've just re-insured my car with increased valuation, they want 6 new photos, and I will also include Stuart's report so they will have no recourse in the event of a total loss, God forbid, as I love my car with all it's issues.