SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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felixkk
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by felixkk »

Joerg wrote:http://www.thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2219

Intresting reading about possible gearboxes. Guess that Jensen has gone the "Austin gear box - way" as in my early Interceptor.
They had not the strongest engineering department and therefore used tried and tested solutions.

Joerg
Doesn't take much to close a topic on that forum, does it! El Coolmino also wants to use a A833 transmission.

Why the Hemi? The decision is based on the following:

- The research done by Richard Calver (The Chassis Data Book)
- Francis Pullen's research he did on this topic 30 years ago when the documents still existed ( :evil: ). Francis remembers seeing a photo of the engine bay (and I think spilling coffee over it). I've wondered if I should send Francis to a hypnotist.
- The meeting notes that Francis posted (thank you Stephen).

Interesting is that production of the Hemi would not much later be ceased (a few months maybe) and the new generation engine (b block) was to be introduced. I wonder how much Jensen knew of these developments.
Felix Kistler
C-V8 112/2454, 541DL 2223849
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Secretary/VP JCC Jensen Car Club of Switzerland

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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by Frankoid »

Felix is quite correct. . I was (still am) particularly interested in the 541 V8 cars as my 541S had a mysterious data plate saying CHRYSLER N0 61 on it. I asked Richard Calver what he knew of the 541 V8's and he found the job numbers for the 4 541 MkII (541S) Chrysler V8 prototypes (including an order to put Austin engines in before sale to the public). ....The 541 MkII must have been developed with the results gleaned from the 541 V8. The wider frame of the 541 MkII was probably designed to allow for a V8 engine, along with the abandonment of the 541 flap for a conventional grill and a standard limited slip differential (to allow for the extra heat and power of a V8?).. ..So the engine of the 541 V8 was probably a very tight fit, it span its wheels and most likely overheated.... The 541S has the same rear springs as the 541 and it can take the power of a Chevrolet 327, but it does have a LSD. In the 1980's I visited Jensen's at Kelvin way with Murray Barber, Mick Barnett and a few other Jensen enthusiasts from Kent. Ian Orford very kindly let all of us see anything we wanted from the archives, including photographs of various prototypes. Alas I could not find anything conclusive on my car, but I did see a picture of a 541 with a V8. And in my excitement did spill coffee all over it ( desecration of a priceless document :oops: ) I will never live that one down. But I dont think the spillage was terminal though.....
Last edited by Frankoid on Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by Joerg »

Let's see what solutions our Swiss friends will find to build this replica.
No more guessing from my side.

Good luck boys 8)

Joerg
I own some of the odd Jensen 8)
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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There is no indication in the accounting that any major work was done on the SEA770's body, as in alterartions to the bonnet to accomodate the engine- which does not mean that they didn't just cut a hole in the bonnet (of which there is no indication on the car) or drive the car w/o bonnet. Labour costs for body work is identical to those for the 541R prototypes (304 Pounds).

Labour cost for the production 541 cars (upto chassis 219) were 435 Pounds- higher than for the prototypes! I don't know why that is- are these costs including interiors and the prototypes had interiors fitted later on?

A typical chassis (up to 219) has labour costs of 265 Pounds. PEA541 had chassis labour costs of 1'170, whereas SEA770 had labour costs of 360 Pounds. Here also I'm not sure what these costs include- just the chassis or all the mechanicals including engine?

The average yearly wage in '57/'58 was I think approx 500 Pounds, industrial wages were at 300 Pounds.

The accounting sheets, held at Warwick:
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Felix Kistler
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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I just noticed that the labour costs for the body in the previous batch (upto chassis 200) was lower and identical to those of the prototypes. I wonder why 5th batch was that much more expensive. The sixth batch is then back to 300 Pounds. Has obviously nothing to do with the interior work.
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Felix Kistler
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by Frankoid »

That is a great find. Does the 5th batch correspond with the DS7 engine? I cant see any reference Chrysler though. In the Jensen Motors minutes it says
"It was reported by Mr RA Jensen:
c) that a prototype 541 "R" series car had been satisfactorily tested and that apart from reasonably favourable prospects in the United Kingdom it was possible that arrangements could be made for sales of this model to the United States for use with a CHRYSLER engine fitted in America."
I wonder if the Chrysler engine was "on loan" from Mopar. The UK had punitive import taxes in the 50's. The minutes state that the engine would be fitted in America. That sounds pretty conclusive (to me) that the engine was an American unit and, perhaps, too expensive for use in the UK , hence the phrase "apart from reasonably favourable prospects in the United Kingdom". Indeed soon taxes were lowered and manufacturers were able to buy engines direct from the American suppliers rather than trying to find loopholes to squeeze the big engines through!
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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Francis, I thought I'd sent those to you- sorry! I went to Warwick I think two years ago after the International. But just briefly, unfortunately. If you haven't been, you'd probably find it quite worthwile.

I think the 5th batch would be the final series of the 541 and 541 Deluxe- maybe the costs for the development of the R body are the reason the price per body is higher. And I think you could be correct that the V8 engine was borrowed from somewhere. I at least did not find any evidence in any of the financial statements where a Chrysler Engine was listed (one of the things I was looking for when I was there).

It would be interesting to make a comparison between the 541R and S chassis to see exactly what was changed.
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by VFK44 »

Thanks for publishing those details. The September 1957 sheet gives details of my car's chassis AND body batches - 3848 and 3853 respectively. The numbers were separated by the job numbers of other work - major or minor - that Jensen were carrying out, so chassis and body were planned within only 5 job numbers of each other, seemingly as a matched pair. One 3853 body went onto an earlier chassis and two (including SEA 770) onto a later chassis, although SEA's was probably based on the same chassis as it was only one job number later. Additionally, four of the 3853 bodies went onto 541R chassis!
"Now that chassis number is particularly interesting ‘cos it’s the one after the one before, which is the one after mine, not many people know that"
Stephen, Epping, Essex
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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Speaking of manual transmissions and Facel Vega:

"Looking through the photographs at Jensens, I came across a picture of a Facel Vega HK500 at the Jensen factory, the last in the line of the French Grandes Routières under scrutiny by the producers of what might be seen as the British equivalent."

John Tipler, Jensen Interceptor The Complete Story, p.62

I wonder when the picture was taken? The HK500 was built '58-'61.
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by Chris_R »

Dunno what book you're looking at, there's no pictures of an HK500 on page 62.
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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Chris, you are correct- there is no picture in the book. I was quoting John Tipler.
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by felixkk »

From the Facel Vega UK club website:

"The first cars were designated FV, and by 1956, a 5,407-cubic centimetre Chrysler Hemi-powered version was introduced as the FV2B."

"In 1958, several engines were offered, with the largest being a 5,801-cubic centimetre Hemi"

"A modest restyling heralded in 1959, and the coupé was now called the HK500. During the year, the Chrysler 6,279-cubic centimetre “wedge” engine, which was replacing the Hemi in the United States, was made available."

http://www.facelvegacarclub.co.uk/facel ... ars/hk500/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by Frankoid »

I wonder where the photo's John Tipler was talking about are ?? Jensens were looking at a Facel Vega..... was this to see how they squeezed the Chrysler V8 in.. I wonder what engine the FV had....
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

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Frankoid wrote:I wonder where the photo's John Tipler was talking about are ?? Jensens were looking at a Facel Vega..... was this to see how they squeezed the Chrysler V8 in.. I wonder what engine the FV had....
"In 1988 Ian Orford sold the business to Unicorn Holdings of Stockport. Although development work then started on a new model, the Series 5, it never came to fruition. After a round of cost-cutting, a Receiver was appointed in 1992 which resulted in the closure, and sale of the Kelvin Way Site. In April 1993 Martin Robey, a manufacturer of Jaguar body spares in Nuneaton purchased the design rights, copyrights, tooling, stock of parts, and almost the entire contents of the works"
http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/ ... Jensen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe Martin Robey has some of those documents (Dave Turnage has suggested that I should visit Robeys). I'm not sure how the IM Group plays into this. I seem to remember that when they moved premises, that most of the documents may have been destroyed.

http://www.imgroup.co.uk/about/history/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would be interesting to get a hold of that picture and try to find out which car, which engine and when this was. But we won't know what Jensen deduced from the inspection.

According to Wikipedia the FV model had a 4528 cm³ Chrysler V8.
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Re: SEA770: 541 with V8 (331 hemi)

Post by felixkk »

There is a press photo of SEA770 on ebay at the moment (please don't bid- or if you need this picture please get in contact!). Thank you Dave for pointing it out- I was not aware of the car being used for this purpose and it is the first time that I have seen this photo.
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