C-V8 FF Recreation

[John Staddon]

Per

Maybe, who knows? You would need to gather all of the world's FF experts around the replica chassis and let them argue about it, then you might get an answer to the question of what it is.

John

[Per]

Spoken like a true renaissance man John

[johnw]

In answer to Per's last post, I think that what Ron was saying is it is a replica C-V8 FF chassis and not a replica FF chassis.

That is a very confusing statement John! Hardly anyone will understand it. We should discuss and clarify "replica FF" and "replica CV8 FF" on the other thread.

(but how does anyone know how the C-V8 FF chassis was constructed when there was only ever one and that doesn't exist anymore?).

That is a relatively easy one to answer. The other thread suggests 3 early Jensen FF experiments built up, 2 of which as CV8 FFs were driven on the road, the other driven around the factory. Jensen may have built a large number of, but say less than 20 more than 10 CV8 FF chassis.

There are artists drawings, very detailed, by John Fergusson (his surname just happened to be Fergusson, not an employee of FF developments) for Autocar, of the CV8 FF. The artist would just go and draw the car he saw in the state it was in, half assembled, complete, etc. Look at his other works. That is an excellent reference, better than a photos. Which of those 3 experiments was that drawing made from, etc, should go on the other thread.

[Frankoid]

This is what I know from published data on the CV8FFs

1. JM/EXP/103 first CV8, FF mule , confirmed by Mike Jones, grey in colour. Road going as a CV8 (not as a CV8FF) registered 261 FEA
2. JM/EXP/110 Second CV8 FF experiment, Motor show car , red in colour, Road going as CV8 FF. Registered EEA 72C
3. JM/EXP/113 Sent to Vignale by road. Vignale FF. Registered HEA 4D

The Jensen brothers and CV8 designer Eric Neale did not want the CV8 FF to be a one off concept car, but a production vehicle. But the zeitgeist was for Italian bodied cars, and they lost a boardroom battle on this issue. All later sadly resigned, and the CV8 FF (EEA 72C) remained an elusive doomed one-off.

I would guess the contemporary press drawing was from from EEA 72C as this was Jensens publicity FF car. The radiator is further back, higher and sloped, quite unlike the Vignale version, probably to allow for the bonnet.

If one could assign the chassis number JM/EXP/110 and the registration number EEA 72C to the recreation it would make the whole proposition a lot more attractive.......

[John Staddon]

I have to back track completely on the information I gave below about the C-V8 donor car, though the person who gave me the information is usually very reliable. I found some photos of the C-V8 FF project from 2011 in JOC magazine 219, they show the project loaded on to George Zdanko's trailer on the day he collected it from Roel Korzaan and it is quite evident from the photos that the basic project has barely changed from 2011 until today, only the bonnet had been changed as it was from a Mk11, the body was, and still is, from a Mk111 (in 2011 someone, George or Roel, wrote a jocular little inscription on the body and the seller confirms that inscription is still there).

John

[Per]

The recreation chassis as shown in the ad at the start here does look more like a C-V8 chassis modified with FF tubes, does any C-V8 experts here recognise the side view of the bulkhead? In particular the horizontal slot, none of my FFs had/have these while the cutaway from The Motor October 10 1962 do indicate them. EDIT: Keith's book "Jensen & Jensen Healey p. 78 clearly show the slot. (Again as supported by Ron's statement that it is a modified C-V8 chassis.)

Then following John W's suggestion I looked again at the cutaway drawing of the C-V8 FF chassis. This looks pretty much like a production FF chassis, but based on existing C-V8 parts. Look closely at the crossmember forming the front of the rear seat. You can see two semicircles by the floor. These are blanks welded on to close the hole where thr C-V8 centertubes would have been. That the artist captured details on that level gives a good indication of how faithful the drawing was to the actual chassis. Even welds are indicated. Judging by the lack of other cut and shut welds I venture the chassis was scratchbuilt.

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[John Staddon]

The slot and the circular hole below it are standard C-V8, here's a photo.

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Here's another photo you may like, a C-V8 rear end from front bulkhead back which supports your very good observation about the holes for the old C-V8 chassis tubes being blanked off, you can also see the more or less same pattern of welds in the rear bulkhead structure on the drawing and on the car.

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As the original C-V8 FF was a C-V8 this is not surprising (even if the chassis was made from scratch JML could have used C-V8 patterns for the sheet metalwork, or used parts already in stock and simply modified them).

But we still don't know what the replica is made of as other than the photo in the ad there are no photos. Ulric Woodhams saw something on the replica that led him to believe that at least part of it is from FF 063 and I would guess that the parts of 063 that were used, if indeed they were, are in front of the front bulkhead where the C-V8 FF would have differed from a standard C-V8 that has chassis tubes extending forward to carry the engine and front cross member.

John

[Frankoid]

I notice on SG Porters contemporary diagram of the CV8 FF he can show the front axle hanger because the oil filter cannister is missing, and a smaller radiator is fixed slightly differently than in the John Fergusson picture. I figure JML must have developed the FF further between these drawings! Also the direct acting dual circuit Dunlop C84 brake servo as used on the MkIII CV8 is the only one that can be adapted for Maxarat anti-skid use. Although neither drawings show the Maxarat fitted, they are mentioned and this may be one reason the earlier mules were discarded .

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I also show a photo of the inspirational 541S mule for comparison. Kevin Beatties first work with Jensen was widening the 541 chassis, that was designed by his predecessor Colin Riekie, to the 541S specifications

[John Staddon]

Photos to get your teeth into!

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In addition to what you see there are many spare parts:

The registration JFF 66. Though JML had no right to it this was a genuine registration but one that was never released, until a few years ago when DVLA held one of their auctions of interesting unreleased numbers and Norman Paskin bought it. The registration isn't assigned to the car but Norman believed it could be when the project was complete.

FF transmission and transfer box

FF steering column upper and lower

C-V8 steering column with gear selector

FF prop shaft

FF pedal box and servo assembly

FF cross member

383 engine, from C-V8 2402, not complete but the parts missing would be replaced during a rebuild anyway.

Lots of C-V8 parts such as Mk111 veneer dashboard, under dash pad, dash top pad, lots of instruments, a radiator and support frame, front grille, steering column shroud, indicator stalk, hub caps (repro) and so on and so on. Also a new old stock C-V8 wiring loom and even a C-V8 tool kit bag and a few tools.

At least some of the bits of interior and the like that you see in the car in the photos are in addition to the parts listed above, as far as I can tell and include a C-V8 Mk11 dashboard (the dashboard has a very strange sign screwed to the glove box lid saying "Please sit well back in your seat for safety and comfort", never seen that before).

Many more photos and lists of parts with photos are available from the seller (I prefer not to be a go between, though if people want to see photos of particular details of the car not shown above I don't mind posting them if I can find what is being asked for).

John

[ffdave]

Really interesting thread John, I've spoken to various owners of the car over the years but never seen actual pics.

The transmission and transfer box were my spares, they were rebuilt by Lorrie Barker and came originally from FF 096 i believe. I didn't want to sell them really but then George told me they were destined for a CV8!. I sold a set of driveshafts a few years later i'm sure for this car too. They were from FF123 (the swamp car).

Interesting that the chassis is probably FF063, i still have the bonnet from that car which Jensen Motors made out of fibreglass, nicely made but apparently the rear corners would curl up slightly after a long hot run!.

D.

[Per]

Looking at the latest pics I am even more convinced the chassis with parts in front of the bulkhead is an FF item grafted onto the rest. The front bulkhead is C-V8. The upper part i. e. 10cm above floor of the rear bulkhead may be C-V8 as well. The lower part from front bulkhead and all the way to the rear is newbuild based on FF design maybe using a few parts/sections from the C-V8.

[John Staddon]

Here's another photo that shows the back end of the car and it shows C-V8 chassis tubes from the rear bulkhead back. I had a long telephone conversation with Ron Clay this morning, almost all about C-V8s but I did ask some questions about the replica, and Ron told me the rear bulkhead is all C-V8 but he made new floor pans and turned the metal up the heel board of the rear bulkhead to cover the open ends of the C-V8 chassis tubes after they were cut short, you can see the horizontal weld which is what makes Per believe that anything below that weld is new. I think the very back of the car is new, perhaps because the donor C-V8 was very rusty in this area - C-V8 boot floors often have to be renewed. I am still puzzled about some details though. At the very front the extensions to the chassis that pick up the front subframe show the same heavily textured underseal that you see on the rear C-V8 chassis tubes, the rear floor pans look old and have a finish on them that could be the same underseal, but the front floor pans are much cleaner and don't look like they have ever been painted. But Ron says all the floor pans are new. You also see the same heavy underseal on the sides of the transmission tunnel, which also has the remains of old brackets and the handbrake mechanism in place and lengths of old brake line, as if the transmission tunnel isn't new, but from above you can see that the flange at the top of the transmission tunnel sides has been cut to allow the metal to be folded and the birds mouths formed have not been welded up, which looks very unfinished and must weaken the transmission tunnel as there is no strength in the top flange.

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John

[Frankoid]

Fantastic photos . The peripheral tubes also lack the rear cut-in foot access recess like the John Fergusson diagram, so I am guessing the tubes are new.

[Per]

I must admit it looks more and more tempting
Now, if somebody would take my 541 project off my hands...... (Beyond loads of detective work across four countries to establish the true identity and get paperwork for it the only thing done has been to collect hard to find parts. When I get around to actually do any work it will take a lot of time )

[FFPL]

Fantastic photos . The peripheral tubes also lack the rear cut-in foot access recess like the John Fergusson diagram, so I am guessing the tubes are new.

The early FFs didn't have the cut-in area. Does the John Ferguson picture have them?